#187 – Neal Ferguson Part 1 - A Conversation on Men’s Mental Health

What exactly does it mean to share your hotness? We all have our own unique spark. We are burning out of control like a wildfire, attracting attention, but is it the right kind of attention? All around us are people who are campfires. They don't get as much attention, but their story, their signature spark, their heat that attracts us close to them Those stories need to be shared. On this podcast, we're sharing their stories, their stories of resilience, overcoming, how to find joy, happiness, everyday people who found their spark and made their life amazing.

Hello and welcome to this episode of Share Your Hotness with my guest today, Neil Ferguson. But before I give you guys Neil, I have to say, you guys have— I know I love— it means so much to me that I have loyal listeners that are like, Lita, where's your podcast? You guys, you know how nice that is. Thank you. Big heart out there. But, you know, with my son's accident and my mommy heart and my mommy feels, I just kind of had to take a minute. And then I had to take like a minute longer. And, you know, really assess what I wanted to do with the podcast. And so I'm trying something different. and doing longer, more in-depth interviews with my guests. So Neil is buckled in. You're knuckled in, right? Absolutely. I was about to say knuckled in, but you're knuckled and buckled in, and we're gonna go deeper, and you guys are gonna love Neil. You're gonna love him so much. I've already adopted him, um, like love him. We, we met at, um, our favorite realtor group Zander Realty. We were on a rowing team. Did we win?

Not quite, but, you know, we won passion.

We— yeah, but we, we came close-ish.

Very close. Very, very close.

We came close-ish to being on the podium. But again, passion. And we talked so much. My husband was like, well, that was fun having you talk to Neil for— I mean, we probably talked for an hour and a half.

Yeah, at least.

Yeah, and we were just like— and everybody was there just basically listening to us. We should have just pressed record on the podcast.

Absolutely. Yes, absolutely.

Neil, give them a little bit about you.

Yeah, so my background— I've spent the past 4 years coaching 100+ men on identity formation, emotional regulation, and coming to terms with their own spirituality. And it's been some of the most impactful moments of my life to, like, have a friend that you've had for months come to you and say, as you're dropping them off at the airport, that was the most fundamental changing experience of my life outside of seeing the birth of my own daughters. You know that you're like, this is what I'm called for. This is something that I was meant to do.

And I really—we had to like finagle calendars to make this happen, but we had to have this come out in mental health month. And I want to focus on the most neglected of the mental health discussions and the most at risk for mental health suicide success and attempting, which is. The evil white man. You know, it's like men in general. I don't want to categorize it out like that because I think men of color get the shaft in their communities as well because they're like all worried about we ladies. And ladies, I'm just gonna— okay, girls, listen to me. We are fine. We are killing it. There is not a pay gap. I'm sorry. There's not a pay gap. You majored in sociology, he majored in engineering, that the society pays different for that. I'm a makeup artist, my husband's a patent attorney. Guess what? The patent attorney makes more than the makeup artist does. We focus on different things. I choose to spend a lot of my extra time doing crafts, and my husband likes looking over sexy technology. Different things drive different people. Are there exceptions? Yes. But I have seen my husband, including other men, passed over and told that they're toxic for being what I think is awesome, what they're meant to be— a great man. So I just want us to kind of start this conversation with, girls, we are not under attack. We are allowed to have our own bank accounts. Most divorces are actually instigated by women. We are not the victims here, and thinking we are is the problem. But the most, um, the most suicidality, the most success in when we're talking about mental health, um, of those who are attempting and are successful are men, and they're completely given crap that they can't have feels. Anything you want to add to that, Neil?

Well, so something that I saw recently that just exploded my mind because I was like, I've seen this, is in my lifetime, so the past 30-plus years, it used to be that, I don't know, 1 in every like 33 men, like very few men didn't have a close friend. And now it's 1 in 7.

Whoa. Okay. So it went from 33, and what year was this?

1990.

1990. Okay.

I was— 1990, 3% of men had not a single close friend. Today it's 15%. And then if we just go to, like, the next level up, it's half of men do not have more than 3 close friends.

Wow.

If you think about most women, like, if you had only 3 close friends, like, that would feel like you're struggling. But that's the case for half of all the men that we deal with every day.

Wow. You know, and I, I guess you kind of forget this because like my husband's a part of a church community, you know, he has coworkers, he was in the Army, you know, like we've lived in places, he has, he has friendships, but he does spend most of his time At work with us, you know?

Oh yeah, like, so my own growing up, I, I'll take the claim that I have the best father that you could ever ask for.

Well, my children do, but okay, I'm just teasing. It's not a competition.

But what I would say is, as we— he made himself constantly available for me, um, growing up. He would go to work all day come home, eat dinner, go to his office to do more work, and I would sit next to him in his office and do my homework. And he just helped me as I was an annoying teenager who constantly complained about every little piece of why do I have to learn this, why does it have to be this way, etc. And he just listened. Incredible. But when I think back to that time period in my life, I cannot think of a single time that he went out with like just his buddies to go out and do something like ever. I can't think of a single moment. He had his friends that were like my Boy Scout friends' parents, where we went to Boy Scout camp together and he was going to hang out with the other parents, but it was by necessity, not by choice.

Yeah. And now you got me worried about my husband because we've gone on double dates.

Yeah,

but when is the last time my husband, separate from a church activity, a Boy Scout thing— okay, he goes hiking with his brother.

See, there you go.

Okay, okay, okay.

There's a comedian, um, who had this great line. He's not religious. He said, you know, the Jesus thing is real because this is a man in his 30s who forms 12 new friendships, not his wife's friends, his own friends, all on his own, and keeps them around for years. He's like, that's something. Tell me somebody else who's done that. And I was just like, yeah, it doesn't happen.

Yeah, like my husband has a lot of friends he's met through like networking and business professional. But you're right. I mean, I, I just get, I get a little hot and frustrated and angry when people talk about me time. And you talk about after putting in 8 hours, which would be the dream.

Mm-hmm.

I mean, when my husband was a young father, um, he was working till he was leaving the house at 8 AM, coming home at 7. And working on Saturdays as well, you know, and didn't work on Sundays if he could help it because of religious reasons. But all of his time was, you know, supporting me in my endeavors, being a dad, doing church.

Yeah, well, and, and the thing that I think about here, if you don't have that church community When you retire, what are you retiring to? Like, the driving range is fun for like a couple weeks, but if you're doing it by yourself, like, what are you going to? Um,

I need to send my husband to Alaska with the guys or something just to make sure that— Yeah,

you know, he needs that. He needs that. That's my whole belief in life, and what I've seen for myself is that when I've chosen to surround myself with other people who have higher standards than I do It elevates who I am to a level that I never would have imagined for myself.

And I want to, I want to clarify that because we were just talking about church and you're not saying higher standards in church. You're saying higher standards in how they conduct their life.

Oh, absolutely. Yeah. So

I just want to make sure it's not being confused because, you know, I go to church to surround myself with the energy and flow of people who are trying to, but ultimately I don't go for the people. I go for my promises to God. Right.

Right.

But you're saying to have people who are striving for excellence in every aspect of their life so that you can become a lot more like that. Yeah.

Yeah, I think men are inherently competitive. And so like an example that I think about with this, I grew up, I thought that I was like the scrawny, geeky, nerdy— well, I was, I didn't think, I knew I was the scrawny, nerdy, geeky kid. I remember there was a friend of mine who looked like the redhead version of Harry Potter, and I was struggling on a hike and he had—

He was Ron and Harry Potter all in one.

Yes, he really was. He really was. And I remember I was falling behind on a hike and he was like, well, I've still got this, so I'll carry your backpack and mine so that you can keep up. And you're like, okay, I really am the scrawny one, I guess. Like, this guy is a twig and he's holding me up, so we're going. But then as an adult, as I developed new friendships who developed new standards, I said, I want to get into lifting. I want to get into feeling more strong. I tried that so many times on my own and like nothing clicked. I started to form a community around that. And all of a sudden you're starting to hit new PRs every week. You're starting to feel like, okay, I've accomplished something, but it's because those other people are helping you to just constantly raise your own standards. Yeah.

Yeah, yeah. Well, my son— you talked about boys being competitive.

Yeah.

One day my, I don't know, 10-year-old son comes to me and he's like, Mom, Mom, Jacob has great hair. I'm sorry, Daniel has great hair and Jacob has all those muscles. What do I have? What do I have? And I was like, I don't know, you have pretty good hair. And I mean, Jacob's like this 10 or 11-year-old boy, and I'm like, I had never really looked at him as this big muscular person. I'm like, you have these things too, but was like, he has it, I don't. It's like this natural competitiveness that I wasn't quite prepared for this. If Daniel's good at this, then I'm not thing, you know, from, from my son, you know. Like, I was just like, oh, what, what's going on here? I don't understand this, you know. Because girls will kind of be together and be like— I mean, girls are competitive, but you know, when we're competitive, we like backbite each other, right? Right. People are like, I want women to run the world, and I'm like, have you been to junior high? No, no, we do not want women to run the world. They will be like, and he was such a jerk. Did you hear what a jerk he was? Like, I don't even like him. And then they're going to start crying in a meeting, you know? And I love women. I love being— I love being a woman. I'm a total fan of me. But I do— I want the mix of the feminine and the masculine. That is where the best in humanity comes out. But when women are competitive, they'll kind of be like, we are the pretty girls. We are the nerdy girls. They'll kind of like identify like in these groups, right? But they tend to— there's, there's their competition thing is different is what I'm trying to say, you know?

Totally.

And so if you're, if you're adjacent to the pretty girl, you're built up by being next to the pretty girl, you know, because she's your friend. So you're like, you've got this tribal, like you're cooler because you're in her, her group. You know,

and I think men need that, but we're too invulnerable to be able to create those tribes. Um, yeah, I could go on about that for a while.

That is, um, I was driving with my sister one time and her 13-year-old son started having emotions. And I being, you know, 22 and I guess not being very sensitive, I kind of whispered to her under my breath, Ooh, puberty's hitting him hard, you know? And she goes, well, boys don't have that. And I'm like, um, but you know, it's, it's representative. I don't want to be too hard on my sister. Maybe I do, I don't know. We'll have a conversation. But, um, that men are not supposed to have outward expressions of feelings. And is that our Victorian, Edwardian, that, you know, kind of established America ideas, you know, where does that come from? Because— but at the same time, if I see a man bawling like a baby in a TV show, I'm like, that's not a man.

Yeah, no, there's— Brené Brown talks about this a lot, that, um, for women there's a variety of different ways that shame attacks you. For men, it basically just comes down to 2 things: I'm not enough and I'm not strong. I, I'm going to be viewed as weak.

Because when my father cried at his dad's funeral, I felt, um, drawn to him for that. Like, I wanted to be here. I didn't think he was weak, you know?

Yeah.

But if a man cries over his blouse, I'd be like, you need to pull it together, buddy.

Yeah, because the man is oftentimes in that masculine frame where they have to provide the safety and security. So if you could be broken down by this, how am I supposed to trust you to protect me? How are you supposed to— how am I supposed to believe that you'll provide security for me?

Yeah, which, um, we had this in our conversation that, you know, that what makes a woman fall in love is time and intimacy. So having conversations, physicality, she's gonna fall in love with you. So when the women are out there being like, it's just sex, no, no, they're gonna fall in love. And then it's complicated because she wants to define the relationship. And men fall in love with what they protect.

Absolutely.

And so we're driven by a security, they're driven to protect us. This is pretty— this is a pretty awesome dynamic. And yes, of course there are exceptions, but across the board, I'm a pretty powerful woman, but my man protects me and I love it. I absolutely love it. You know?

And I think that we're seeing this resurgence of, I don't know, the manosphere, if you've heard of that term.

Yeah. But you know, that's like Andrew Tate, right?

I mean, yeah, it's Andrew. Everyone from Andrew Tate on the one side to Jordan Peterson on the other.

Okay. I like Jordan Peterson.

Right.

People like to pimp out women, you know.

Exactly, exactly.

A low bar for me. Yeah.

No, but what I think what we see with this manosphere is a little bit of this return to don't feel your feelings. There's— we had this woke movement for a long time. And then we see— we saw people having feelings, etc. We're like, wait, I don't know if I like that. Now we're starting to see the pendulum move in the other direction of go back to hide your feelings, just be strong. And

I don't think woke's done. I don't think—

Oh no.

Yeah, I, I think it's, um, as Andrea Ocasio-Cortez, you know, AOC, said, wow, woke 1 was crazy, as she uplevels us into, you know, the, the next level of it, which is, you know, I guess we're all androgynous.

I, I have no idea where, where she's at. Yeah. But what I do think we struggle with is that both men and women need to have a blend of masculine and feminine energy. You can't expect one individual to provide all of that energy. And in any relationship, if you have a highly, highly masculine man, then yeah, he'll need a highly feminine women. But I think that we need to move away from saying, okay, everyone move to the opposite ends of the polarity, and say instead, recognize who you are individually, where you align, and be able to say, I'm going to be able to default provide in the way that aligns with who I am.

You know, but I do love as a woman when I can go and be, you know, Hard charging, do my job, you know, you know, even be on a stage and have people clap for me. Like it's a very public, I guess, you know, masculine, you know, because I'm out there, I'm doing the thing to come home and have, you know, the safety of my husband and, you know, making dinner. Like there's something. And it's not that I like cooking, it's just there's something about that grounds me in that, that he's there. And like, when I'm sad, his hugs are everything. Like, sometimes I just go into my husband's office and just like, hug me, you know?

Beautiful.

Yeah. And, and, but you know, that's that masculine in him. Even though I have a lot of drive you know, that I've, that I've done in my life. I love that I can trust him to manage, you know, those manly things, like, right? Like, he, um, I have access to all our money, I know what's happening, but he's doing the financial planning with our financial planner. You know, he's the one, and I feel like that's the way he protects us. And then I know he's not going to go and like buy a truck tomorrow without Us talking about it, you know.

Good. That's trusting. Right. Text coming out.

And again, but our dynamics are very traditional in some ways and very untraditional in other ways. But we as a couple have worked that out. But overall, he is the protector. And I don't have to work at this point. And he is the provider. And I'm the nurturer and the soft place to cuddle. You know, our kids like to cuddle me and they like to have Dad be like, okay, this is what we're gonna do,

right?

You know, and so I do think I've seen a lot of marriages where the woman is such— so hard driving that she diminishes her man to the point— and you can see it happening— where she gets upset if he's not soft enough. And then when he's softened up enough, she's like, oh, you're, you're a weak man, and she leaves him.

And I think that that's the ultimate challenge. Like, you brought this up in a perfect example. So you're able to go out into the world, be able to embrace your own masculine energy, be able to kind of have that like salesy, almost dog in you. I've seen it. Like, you've got that. Um, You can embrace. And if someone said you have to tap that down, that's not feminine enough, like, there'd be a part of you that just kind of dies inside.

And I'm just like, whatever, whatever, you know.

And so, but you have an outlet for it. And then you also have a space where you can come back to what I'd call default for you. Um, that is, I'm able to come back into my feminine energy. I'm able to come home and be able to know that I can be in that feminine space.

But I trust— then this kind of what I want to explore with you, because I think it'll be useful to the listener. Um, I think women struggle with the fact that a lot of us do have to provide. I am fortunate enough that there have been times where I had to be the main provider, um, because my husband was in school, you know, things like that. Yeah. He was in the Army. I chose— I wanted to make more money than the Army paid, you know, that kind of thing. But even during those times, he was still— he still had that protection of me.

Exactly right. So something that I love with modern society that I think we don't give it enough credit— so we go back to this past where men provided and protected and women played this more nurturing role and provided beauty. But in today's world, there's so many people who, um, the women women are oftentimes making more money than men. On average, that's the case right now, at least for the women of college graduates. Yeah, they're graduating more. They have more master's degrees than men most of the time. So it creates this complexity because it says, okay, I don't need you anymore to be my provider and protector, quote unquote, because I can provide for myself. And so One can look at that from a negative lens of how we've changed the role of women and men in society today, and I think that's a conversation on its own.

But, you know, biblically— I'm just gonna back it up because I want to make sure we're having the same definitions here.

Yeah,

biblically or ancestrally, let me put it that way, like the, the, the idea of the 1950s housewife, that was a blip on humanity.

Exactly.

That was not— that was something that modern conveniences made possible. And the feminine first wave feminism that said we want to give women a choice, which I agree with, you know— well, I guess first wave would have been like voting. Then, you know, then we're talking about women have a choice because they're anciently, you know, women worked, you know, we helped run the farms with our husbands, we sold in the marketplace, you know, the Bible, it talks about women in business. You know, that a woman who can do that is precious beyond pearls, right? So women historically were— let me correct— in Christendom cultures had a lot more equality than they might have in like, you know, other cultures, right? Which we don't have to get into all of that, but where a lot of the listeners are probably coming from. But that 1950s It morphed into almost a pendulum of too far, that women need to have all the same choices of men, even if that defies biology. And I think we're still kind of going and pushing how far that can go.

You know, I think what's fascinating to me is that the, um, that 1950s stereotype that we have never really existed. Uh, so like about a third of the women at that point in time were part of the full-time workforce. Today it's about 60%, so it's not even double what it was back then.

And that was an anomaly that a woman would not have some form of earning money.

Yes.

It was, it was a luxury of modern conveniences because the woman that was working where most of us would have been, like farm or, and, you know, or, um, you know, even the Industrial Revolution, right? Like those were women in the factories too. Right? They just didn't get paid as much as men.

Mm-hmm.

You know, and you can make an argument of why that was, but women were working. So this idea that we were never allowed to work— we just didn't always get paid what a man might get paid, but we were working. And society valued us as Um, our labor of going and milking the cow was valuable, and our labor of making life was revered.

And I think— I don't know what I think about with all that is coming to today's time. Um, if you don't need a man to provide financially for you, it means that in a relationship, in a marriage, Both parties now have choice, and I think that that actually, if done properly, leads to a much healthier relationship. If I'm only with you because you provide for me, you provide financially for me, and I've just been stuck with that, like, I don't know, that's not a very loving relationship. That's not a marriage that I'd want.

Yeah, and you know, here's the thing, like, there have been periods of our marriage That I made more.

Sure.

My husband never said, you have to go do that.

Right.

I never said, you have to go do that. Right. But he's always valued what I do domestically. That's the side I pay for. Like, I don't get to go make cheese for my family and go sell it too. Right. You know, I— but he's always, you know, when he came home and the kids are thriving and the house is clean, he's like, man, you're awesome. You're amazing.

He's such a good guy there. I,

I really did marry him on purpose. And, but I think that when we don't, we're naturally going to, in any relationship, male or female, we're going to fall into roles, right? Because there are some women that manage more of the money because their brain works more that way.

Yeah.

That should be valued by their spouse, that that's what they're doing. And, you know, I fold the laundry because I do it better. It drives me nuts to have things not folded and hung the way I want. And I'm not going to nag my husband into doing it better. That is the role that works better, is that I do this, but he does other things. And we delegate through both conversation and just kind of the flow of our our dynamics that certain decisions default to me to make and certain decisions default to him to make. And, you know, if we're like having a discussion and we're not quite sure what to do, you know, I might, in his role areas, I'm going to go, you put more time into this. I'm going to, I'm going to go with you. You know, but in my areas, he's going to be like, I trust you.

Yeah, yeah. I think that, that finding that blend is so unique to each individual relationship. Don't you agree? Like, I'm sure you have friends that are like, have a completely different dynamic.

Absolutely.

What gets traded off, but they're still in their masculine and in their feminine,

right? But, and again, there are some women that are more masculine than their husbands, and more likely those marriages over, you know, I'm 53 years old,

right,

where the woman runs the pants— I'm not even going to say it that way— where the woman is not seeing her husband thriving, she doesn't respect him. Yeah. Because I see domineering women where they keep the marriage, but typically if she's more masculine than him, the marriages don't seem to work as well. But really, I think it's where when he's not thriving or he's too complacent, that might be the better word, where he gives her too much of what she wants. And I'm— there's about 8 marriages that I've seen pretty closely where I'm like, man, that guy is really nice. Like, he just— oh, I mean, and she'll say things like, I don't even have to ask. And I'm like, well, I don't know if I have to ask. But I do out of respect to our dynamic. There is an informing of the schedule, an informing of the budget, right? But when she has so much freedom that there's none of that, that just it ends in divorce.

Respect. Yeah, that's the way I think about it.

Yeah, it's like respect to your partner, but also don't men thrive? I mean, that's what they need. That is like the number one thing a man needs, correct?

Men want respect. That's the number one thing. And they don't want it just from their spouse. They want it from their kids. They want it from their friends. They want it from their coworkers because respect is the opposite of that thing driving their shame that you're not worthy of anything.

Yeah. So when women are grumping on their husband, I was given the advice as a newlywed to not hang out with women that rag on men. And I was like, oh, okay. And then it was like boom, boom, boom. I started seeing examples of why that might be really good advice. And every single whiny woman I know— I would have to make a list, but it seems like every single one of them are divorced. And I, and I blame the lady because she was just sitting there nagging on him all the time.

And I think that for the men, it's a— they have a responsibility to show that they're thriving. That's the piece where I look at most relational problems and I almost never see one where I can say it's one-sided. There are occasional ones, but

the thing is, these women were whining on their husbands, and I'm choosing that word instead of the B word.

Oh yes.

You know, because I mean, we can swear on my podcast, I guess. I don't know, but maybe we shouldn't. I don't know. Um, I say poopy all the time, but they're the ones that initiate the divorce.

Oh yes, but why do the women initiate the divorce? I think that that's the piece that's interesting, is that the men— men aren't initiating the divorce because what are they leaving to? Men don't— men are the hunters, they're the pursuers. Like, if a man gets divorced, do you realize how hard it is to go back and get married again? Even if you're a good-looking guy, even if you're making good money, even if you're emotionally, um, resilient.

I don't know, but maybe it's because in my faith There are more women in the church, you know, and I think this is across most religious systems. There are more women who will be adherent to the faith, right, than men. And it'll be like, I, I, I— there are several women who have said this kind of version, that they threw their husband away. They've said this to me.

Yeah.

Words. And now all they want is him back, but he's moved on. Because there are so many women that are like, well, I've had the narcissist guy, or I had the guy that, you know, didn't have my same values, and now I will marry a fat balding man who loves God. Like, those men get snatched up, and, you know, because they're just like good guys that were maybe too nice.

Yeah, I think that the, the nice guy thing. So a book that I absolutely love that I recommend to most everyone is No More Mr. Nice Guy. So I'm a reformed, coming out of being a nice guy multiple years.

I don't know, you seem really nice to me, but not a pushover. Maybe that's what we're talking about.

I think that there's a difference between nice and kind.

Okay, okay, I agree. Bring it out. Yeah.

So I think that nice is inherently dishonest. The term I really love when it comes to nice is that you have these covert contracts. And if you like look around at the nice guys in your life, you'll be like, oh, I see this all the time where you'll see a guy and he'll do all these like incredible things for this woman. He'll go and, I don't know, he cleans the counter, he does the dishes, he makes the food, Gives her all the money to do whatever he wants, and then quietly in the back of the house, not in front of everyone, it's like, but I'm expecting this sexual favor. I'm expecting you to, um, do X, Y, and Z for me because I did this for you.

Okay.

Those expectations were never communicated. They were never agreed upon. And what it ultimately leads to is him being passive-aggressive and just, I don't know, kind of mean and dishonest, honestly. So he's doing all this for transactional, not for an actual just love of his partner.

So I have a little joke that says, men and food and the other thing, they'll die for you. You give up food and the other thing consistently, they'll die for you. And, um, I, I see it both ways, like Where if there's a tit for tat, that's unhealthy. But at the same time, when you got married, what did you think that looked like?

See, I think that for me, it all comes back to choice. I don't want someone or something doing something out of obligation. Okay.

But when I had a baby,

yeah,

I pushed this thing. It was amazing. with a big head that ripped me partway back.

Yes.

Okay, I will not say— and then when I had that beautiful thing eating off of me and bodily fluids had to be organized for me to be away for an hour, that I felt very sexy. In fact, I was kind of like, what is wrong with you that you find I see, like, what is wrong? But I have a need for security, affection, for tell me I'm— tell me I'm awesome. You know, like, women are a little bit more complicated. You know, like, I want you to listen to me, and then sometimes I want you to give me the solution, and sometimes I don't. But

all the time—

Yeah, like, you know, women are much more mysterious this way. But men, barring dysfunction or addiction, Food and the other thing, they'll die for you. So if I waited until I felt sexy, there would be a long gap there. And so I tell this to my lady friends all the time. It's really easy. You have a calendar. Oh, every 4 days after a baby, you have it on your calendar, have a little star, and you start flirting with your husband. And you look at him longingly and you absolutely flirt with him because we need such a warm-up, especially when we're, we're baby, you know, like the baby years. Because if you wait for 2, 3 years in between feeling— because it was years that I did not feel like the last thing from my mind would be, let's, let's have sex. That would not be what I would think. And it is never okay to cheat. I have the lowest opinion of cheating in today's modern world because if you're not happy, then you leave the marriage. You don't cheat. You know, if there's a business contract, you shouldn't get anything from the contract, the business, if you cheat on that contract. That's how I'm brutal about it, right? So if you are not there for your husband physically, there's not permission for him to cheat. Let's just be very clear. But I, knowing what his needs are, he's meeting all of mine. He's there for me emotionally. He's telling me I'm pretty, even though I think he's weird because there's something weird happening with my stomach. You know, like, he's doing all of his things. He's providing. You know, I was still working too, but you know, he's, he's going to work. He's doing the stuff. Why would it be so hard to just remember every 4 days with a calendar item to flirt with him a little bit so that I get the 12-hour warm-up that I need? And then you know what, not so bad, it was fun. But we're just not gonna naturally think that. But it's— when you're getting married, you need to think about what that looks like for this person. What are going to be some of their expectations? Having conversations about that.

Yes.

I did not know as a newly married woman what pregnancy and miscarriage and infant loss and death would do to me. It did not make me feel sexy, I'll tell you that. But I agreed to a certain format of marriage called fidelity, and I don't get to change that contract without there being consequences. Like, if I came home and said, honey, I think we should have an open marriage, he'd have every right to be like, yeah. And I'd have every right if he flipped that one on me. And there are couples that do it and navigate it okay, but that's not the kind of marriage I signed up for, nor the kind he signed up for. And so I need to make a mental note to answer his primary needs, just like he makes a mental note. And sometimes it's easy For him to do that, and other times he might have to put a little star on his calendar.

You know, there's a, there's a quote from a guy I follow that I really like, and he's like a famous divorce lawyer. And he said, there's 2 things that really showed me that someone was going to go and get divorced. He said it was granola and the other thing.

Granola.

Granola. And you're like, wait, what? What are you talking about with granola? Granola and BJ's is what he called it.

Because they're only about 6 weeks and—

Yeah, exactly, exactly. So he said granola because he said when this couple originally got married, every day for breakfast, the husband would wake up earlier and just as part of his morning routine, He'd like get some yogurt, put in some granola in it, mix it up a little bit, add some, cut up some fruits, throw it in, and just like leave it in the fridge for his wife. And just did that every day without fail. Just like, yeah, she didn't really comment on it. He didn't really comment on it, but it was just, I love you and I want you to feel important and desired. And so I'm gonna do this for you.

Mm-hmm.

And sex was the same from her to him, that she was just, without much thinking, make this happen.

Mm-hmm.

Now he's like, there was a day that he didn't make the granola and nobody talked about it. Nobody commented on it. It just happened. And then here and there he stopped making it more and more and more. And on the same token, she stopped just spontaneously making him excited. And about 2 years later, they're in his office with the lawyer and saying, hey, I'm ready to get divorced.

And yeah, and yeah, I think that's so profound because I think so many— okay, so I was talking to this girl one time, very cute girl, like all the cuteness. Okay. Yeah, he's like, oh, introduce me. No, wait, Neil. Anyway, she is engaged to this guy and she was telling me all these things that he was going to be doing in their marriage. And I'm a makeup artist, so people tell me the things, right?

Love it.

And so she's telling me all this, and I was like, awesome, what are you gonna do? And she's like, what? And I'm like, well, you've just went on and on telling me all the things he's— that you're getting out of the marriage. What are— what are you— what are you bringing to the marriage? She goes, look at me, I'm beautiful. And just the way she said it, I was like, well, yeah, she, she is beautiful. And I was like, no, but you know, what are you gonna bring? Because she was talking about how much money he makes and how he has to do this and this and this and this and this and this for her. And it seemed very transactional to me how she was referring to him like he was a sugar daddy. Sorry. I have a larynx thing, everybody. And so I was just like, what, what's he getting out of it? And so she's like, it is his job to provide for me and to give me this much money every month for maintaining me and my, my well-being. And I was like, so basically, because she was being such a snot about it, I was like, basically you're a paid prostitute. And she just kind of looked at me like, what are you talking about? And I was like, you haven't referred to him as anything other than the paycheck.

Yeah.

And the only thing you're bringing into it is your looks. And I will tell you, as a married woman growing up in a toilet one day, having had a miscarriage, which in— if I were a medieval queen would have gotten me beheaded, you know, for how many miscarriages I had. And my husband looks at me and he's like, you're so beautiful. There was nothing beautiful about me as I'm puking in the toilet. You want a man to love you for more than just what you look like. He was talking about my soul that day.

Exactly. And I think that that's what fascinates me. One of the— there's stats around this, and I don't know how you can go and fully judge it, but I've seen they reported many times that men, when they cheat, oftentimes women will have this response being like, she's less attractive than I am. Like, why? If he's going to cheat, like, at least like choose somebody that like, you know, like, yeah, is a 10 or something. And the thing continues to come back to the same issue that That woman made him feel desired, and that matters. Honestly, that matters more to men than sex or most anything else, because it's that respect that I have worth,

right? I'm like, couldn't you substitute that desired for respect?

Yeah,

you know, and if we women are driven by security, you know, um, You know, we need to respect the men that are providing that emotional, spiritual, or financial security, you know, or just stability, right? I, you know, to me, I don't think most women care, you know, healthy women compare care as how much money he's making if it's done consistently and with effort.

Mm-hmm.

You know, but they want that stability, right? And, um, yeah, I mean, it's like this respect thing. So talking about men's mental health, we have, um, every cart— every cartoon I've seen for years, like when I was growing up, The Cosby Show, he was a funny guy, but he was the man of the house, and he had had a confident wife You know, she wasn't stupid. Um, you know, there was, you know, back— you go—

I absolutely loved The Cosby Show back in the day.

I do too. And it makes me so sad that he was a pedophile, um, on several levels. But the, the content of that show was a happily— a happy dynamic of a healthy couple. And it— that was pretty much what we had on TV, you know, Happy Days, you know, like you can go back, it was happily married couples to, um, you know, Everybody Loves Raymond or Bart Simpson— this goofy dad that doesn't have his together and the long-suffering wife that has to put up with it. You know, that Hollywood is depicting men as at best affable idiots but not giving them respect as, you know, like, you know, the men we're supposed to desire are the vampires and the bad boy. And I'm like, I always tell girls, like, if you know he's a vampire and is going to suck your blood, don't be surprised when he sucks your blood. What is wrong with dating and pursuing good men? Good men. What's wrong with that?

Good men have been too many men think that they're quote-unquote good men because they're nice men, and nice men are not good men. Nice men are inherently dishonest, inherently trying to manipulate in a unique way, but they're, they're being manipulative. And they believe—

Like, if somebody is— if my husband tells me I'm pretty when I'm dressed up nicely, that's— he might be saying the words that's nice, And it might be, he might have in the back of his mind, she is kind of looking at me longingly. That's not being manipulative.

No.

But if I have, you know, if, if he's like, I'm going to do this for her and like you were talking about.

Exactly. I'm going to tell her that she's pretty so that she goes and has sex with me later. And then if she doesn't have sex with me later, then I'm upset that I wasted a compliment or I don't know, you just insecurity read in.

That seems like— that seems like he's being in his feminine when he does that.

Oh, absolutely.

Because aren't like the masculine men I think of— zoning Jordan Peterson type of masculinity, not Andrew Tate, we pimp out our women, um, just so everyone's clear— um, communicate.

Yeah.

Right? Like, don't pout. Like, pouting is not— that is— that's not— it's not boyish.

Yeah,

it's, it's, it's silly. Like, I don't like it when women do it, but I think we're much more likely to because our feelings are not— because our feelings can be very hormonal. Men as well, but men tend to drill down on things where there are times I've just cried because I'm just crying. And my husband will be like, what? What? You know what? And I'm like, you know what? I think I'm just— I think it might be my period. I don't know. And then he hugs me and it's all okay, right? But I just— oh, the pouting is, is manipulative to me.

No, totally. It's completely manipulative because I don't have enough confidence as a man to be able to actually express what my needs and wants are. And that's where it comes from. I don't believe in myself. And if I don't believe in myself, then how on earth is anyone else supposed to believe in me? And with that, you become this nice guy, which I deal with this constantly in talking with men every day. The nice guys are oftentimes formed by a religious community. There's an incredible book, Wild at Heart, that talks about this.

Mm-hmm.

And an exercise I sometimes do with people is I'll ask them like, hey, if you're a Christian man— if you're not a Christian man, this still applies.

But religious communities are Christianity, you know, um, Judaism,

everything. Yes.

And even like, you know, wokeism is a religion. It's just, this is exactly what people are supposed to be. Anytime you get a structure like that, people can fake it to blend into that culture.

Yes. Well, and sometimes I think that good, honest, sincere people just miss the ball. Like, I know I'll say this for myself, that like growing up, I used— if someone were to say like, describe 3 words to describe what you believe about God, I'd say, well, he's like, he's charitable, he's kind, he's forgiving. And Those are all terms that are kind of a little bit more on the feminine train. Like, still, God's God, right? Like, good for you.

Yeah, I've read the Old Testament.

Yeah, exactly.

God is a badass. Like, he is like, I told you, get your crap together. Like, the, the people made Jesus into this hippie-dippy, always peace and love. I'm like, Have you read the scriptures?

Yes.

God is the one who's like given us consequences. So there is an Egyptian belief that I believe this is where Heavenly Mother is, and it's this feminine figure that is very large, like a— like almost like an arch or rainbow, and underneath her are And you know it's a her because of the autonomy— the anatomy, right? There are hundreds of figures, and the belief is this is the mother goddess, which— Ra's wife. I can't remember what she's called. I apologize to all Egyptologists. But all of these figurines underneath, and it's these— this— when they die, when that soul dies, She's the one that brings them into her to comfort them from what Earth was, what life was. And I was like that because when our kids have struggled, I want to fix— I want to give them everything they want, everything. And that is the wrong answer, but that's my instinct. And my husband is, we need to let them go out into the world. And figure it out, and we're here when they want us. And I'm like, okay, okay, you know. So that's what I think God's doing. He's like, you guys, I've let you go out into the world to figure it out, and I'm here, and here are the rules. And Heavenly Mother's up there being like, but will they be okay? Will they be okay? And she's just freaking out. That's my theory.

Yeah, I think My just general thought comes back to, and I know we're coming close on time, um, that when men are able to understand where their lines are, they know I am me, you are you, and I can separate how you respond to me from how I will choose to act. That represents someone that you want to surround yourself with. That represents Um, in my mind, what I would view of a, of a God, no matter your religion or your ideology there, like, that's someone that says, I have my limits, and no matter what you do, I will not break my own limits.

And I think that goes back to that respect you were talking about that a man needs to get from everyone but that source of shame that he has with himself, which we all, we all deal with our our shame and our way, right? But I think what's also important about what you just said is how he has to figure out what that is, because if he's just capitulating to her energy—

Oh my gosh, it's awful.

She's gonna leave him for not being his own person, and then she's like, oh my crap, he was such a weak man. Where, you know, um, he's got to have his own, his own sense of self, right? Just like she does.

Exactly. Yeah, having your own sense of self is so— it will make you healthier, it'll make your partner healthier. It just does everything to go and make everything work back together. And sometimes some people have been stuck in that dynamic where they didn't have a sense of self for such a long time period that that relationship breaks with someone forming their own identity of self.

Um, okay, I want to pick that up in part 2. Let's not forget the identity thing because I think that's important. But you brought up, um, the nice guy in typically in like a religious system because he's just clicking the boxes instead of— you were kind of expanding on that.

Yeah, let me talk about that. Um, I know I grew up in a world where anger was just basically not something I saw. I know that there's the traditional man, 1950s, etc. I grew up in a household where, like, my dad was very religious and very rarely got angry with us ever, which was wonderful. It worked very— it had great, great value in my life. But I also think that I needed to come to a conclusion of the value that anger had. And to not put this away and say anger is immoral and you're the, like, powerful white male who has a temper or has an anger, and so thereby you're bad. Instead, you need to learn how to use that anger towards a— Right.

Thank you for listening. This is Lita Green, and if you have enjoyed our podcast and would like to learn more about the principles that I teach as a speaker, I have a special opportunity for the young girls in your life. So I teach maturation programs. I wrote a book on overcoming sexual abuse, and I wrote a book on confidence. And I've had a lot of parents—I mean, a lot. lot of parents come and say, I would love for your daughter to be— my daughter to be coached by you. But in order for me to coach individual daughters— so I've come up with an idea of what we're going to do. I'm going to do a group mentorship and you get to come along with your daughter. So I will be presenting principles that you and your daughter are able to go home and have the conversation. So really you're the coach, but you're being given a conversation opener. So far I have 8 workshop topics. So if you'd like to have more information about those, they are literally only going to be $40 each. And even better, if you have 2 girls, that's $80. If you have 5 girls or 4 girls or 3 girls, it's $100 per family. I am not doing this to make a ton of money. I am doing this because our girls need to have the information Frankly, that I've been teaching for years, and I want to make that accessible to more than just the one-on-one that come to me and ask for my time as a coach. And because I'm— I have to charge money per hour, you know. So this way we're getting it cheaper and accessible, and they can learn with others. And I'm hoping this will be amazing for everybody involved. So let me know if you want more info.