#188 –Neal Ferguson Part 2 - A Conversation on Men’s Mental Health

What exactly does it mean to share your hotness? We all have our own unique spark. We are burning out of control like a wildfire, attracting attention, but is it the right kind of attention? All around us are people who are campfires. They don't get as much attention, but their story, their signature spark, their heat that attracts us close to them Those stories need to be shared. On this podcast, we're sharing their stories, their stories of resilience, overcoming, how to find joy, happiness, everyday people who found their spark and made their life amazing.

Hello and welcome to this episode of Share Your Hotness. Now, if you have not listened to last week's episode with Neil Ferguson, you need to go back because Neil And I are picking up right where we left off last week because we actually just did it back to back. So we went and did a potty break and Neil went and got a snack because men need to eat, you know, and women of a certain age need to pee. So if that was a TMI, now you know. Neil's giving me a funny look. So we're just gonna pick up right where we went. So go back and listen to episode 1 if you haven't. And we'll get right back into what we're talking about— mental health and men and masculine and feminine. And I was really excited about— you were drilling in on— we've talked about respect a lot, but we're really drilling in on identity. So I'm just gonna let you flesh that out.

Oh my gosh, this is one of my favorite things to talk about.

I know,

I know. Yeah, I think one of the things we see amongst men, and I'll say this for myself personally, this has been a little bit of my own faith journey. When you're a part of a very hierarchical institution, it's easy, and that could be your family, that could be a workspace, the army, military, or a church organization. It's easy for letting that group Determine what your identity should be.

Okay, yeah, I like that. Yeah, this is going back. I just want to make sure I'm tracking. Okay,

yeah,

because this is going back to that nice guy concept. Yep, and it's just men who are defining their identity by the group thinking this is their identity, and so they're faking it to be within the group. So it's not really If it's the army or church, it's that they are using that group identity to form their personal identity.

And it's not even a faking it. I mean, maybe it is, but from my perspective, it's how can you fake something that you don't even know? Like, this is the only way you know how to live. And so I don't blame these men or hold them at fault for being like, this is what I, I know to be. But, um, they haven't done that self-work of figuring out who they want to be, what their identity should be.

Right, right.

Um, and so because of that, at some point— and you see this for a lot of men in between the ages of like early to mid-30s through to 50— they're like, crap, like, I'm not living the life I always wanted to live. I don't even know what that life really is, but, um, I know it's something. So in like the old days, it used to be that you buy like a red sports car and like drive off into the sunset and do something dumb. Um, today it seems like instead you start taking a lot more peptides and testosterone and like try and get ripped at like 45 rather than at like 25. Right, right. You see these men who are just like, okay, I'm just bouncing to the next quote-unquote group that will form my identity. That's really unhealthy. Um,

yeah, and our lives have different phases, you know, we have different things. And so if you're not getting— as a man, if you're not getting respect for the role you're working to fill, you're not going to be happy.

Yeah, and if you don't have a sense of purpose beyond your family you will feel like you are replaceable. You'll feel like, I don't have an actual identity beyond just being a provider and a protector. I'm not an individual. I'm just this position of father and husband.

Because I, um, I think there's like a parallel with that that's very interesting because, you know, a lot of times women will say to me, you know, I feel like I lost myself in motherhood and I'm like, Okay, did you know who you were before you became a mom? And they're like— and I'm like, don't blame your children that you didn't know that before. But the woman I was before I became a mother is not the same woman today. My children changed me, right? You know, being a wife changed me. Um, being an empty nester changed me. Having You know, being in cancer treatments. I don't have cancer, everyone, but they put me in cancer treatments. I know that's a weird thing, but that changed me. Like, there's different phases of life that change us. And, um, with what you're saying with men, if they don't have a broad enough identity,

like,

that, that's a problem. Because like, for being a mom, there are years where that is it. Yeah. And that seems to work for a lot of women throughout history. We just can't stay there forever, you know. But there's a 3 to 4 year period that if you're not— every moment of your day is not consumed with your child, your child could die, you know. Um, but you're saying if the men doesn't have a— if it's just— if it's too narrow

That— Yeah, I think that it's for both men and women here. And I recognize that there are time periods where it's tight. But if you're able to say, I know who I am, even if I'm not able to spend much time in this space. I think about, I have a sister-in-law. Both my sister-in-laws are incredible mothers. But I think of, I was thinking of one here. where when I speak with her, her whole life is being a mother right now. She's pregnant. She has one under 2 and one under 4. Mm-hmm. Like, it is the peak of my whole life is encapsulated in being a mom. But also you can see that she has this identity of, I know that I'm a teacher. I know that I provide for my friends a space for vulnerability. I— she has these other pieces to her life beyond her position, and I see how that translates into her ability to be a mother.

Yeah, I like what you're saying about this because before we were saying that if it's only a husband and father, well, it's not the title that's the issue, it's that they haven't drilled it down.

Yes.

Because being a mom was all-consuming for me. And in all transparency, greatest thing I've ever done. Love being a mom. Super gratifying. But I am a mom who always had— the bitter reality was I had to work, you know, at that time.

Right.

I would have loved to have only been a mom. But I always had to work. because there was— we needed— we like to eat, and my husband was in school, you know. Um, and so maybe that kind of saved me in a sense from— but I also—

Absolutely. Having talked with many women, um, in this identity formation space as well, absolutely. I think it played a role in saving you because it said, I am something more than just this position.

And to those who can

make that work,

It's funny because I was a makeup artist and I taught in a beauty school and I was a maid.

Hmm.

And people often made fun of me. Like, one time a guy said to me, so you're a makeup artist? And I was like, yeah. And he goes, so you're not that smart. So it wasn't like I got a lot of respect for what I did, but I was doing what I needed to do for my family. And key to it, my husband was doing, you know, he was— his job, our contractual agreement at that time was he was performing well in school so he could get a job at the outside of school. But, you know, I think I would have been perfectly happy not working. But I think it's that I knew who I was. I knew I was a delight.

Yes.

Like, I've, you know, I, I mean, I won't, I won't go on to how, how much I like me, but I, I, that was very clear to me who I was. And so That, that is what I think where we need to drill in on is for men to have more than just the title they get respect for is drilling down on those personality traits that they like about themselves, right?

Yeah, that core character of this is who I am. And where I even would go farther and draw the line is I would be willing to risk and do anything if it meant outside of changing this about myself. And you can see how large institutions do a really good job of capturing that within you. So like military, like I am, I'm going to be this representative and that's it. And that there's nothing else. Or in a religious institution, like you are a part of this. And if anyone questions that, any part of you questions that, like, leave it to the side. This is who you are to a T, and you can choose that.

I, I, um, I— it's, it's hard for me to put, like, religion and art. Maybe that's, you know, that I have a feminine brain looking at this, because I've always seen religion as more of a choice. But I know that there are people who are very, um, uh, strict about it, right? Yeah. And I had like this neighbor who, he was very upset that I was friendly because he felt like it was over the line and told Nathan that he needed to learn how to control his wife. And my husband was like, control is not one of the words that I was looking for when I married her. Um, you know, um, so maybe that's just out of my realm of reference. So I want to make sure we're drilling in that it's when the man defines himself by what he perceives the structure of that group to be, that he's not doing the personal work of what is he within that structure.

And the man doesn't understand his ability to choose.

Okay, okay.

That's what it comes down to. Okay, religion's great. I, I am, um, very committed to an interfaith community, but I think that far too often people who are raised in a very, um, orthodox household, everyone has to come to that point of understanding, who am I in relation to this entity?

Absolutely. Because, you know, everybody has to discover God on their terms, which is why I always tell parents when their child's experimenting or asking questions, this is good. Isn't it great that they trust you enough to ask questions? Because I never asked questions of my mom,

right?

Oh no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. You know, you didn't ask questions. Isn't it wonderful that they can challenge you and question? That's a good thing because that's forming identity from what you're saying.

Exactly, exactly. Those questions are what ultimately lead you to say, here are my points that form who I am. I know that I am blank and blank. And I think for men, an exercise that I do oftentimes in coaching is working with them to help come up with 1 to 3 sentences that you can basically say, I would sacrifice everything for this. No one crosses this line for me. Or I— not— let me rephrase that, because people throw around the word boundaries all the time. I think it's terribly misused and terrible, um, change in our culture because you crossed my boundary. That—

yeah, not your— it's not, it's not my job to monitor your boundaries.

Exactly.

It's your job to realize what your boundaries are. And you know, when people say a word someone else will like and they're like, that's violence, I'm like, no, that's communication.

And you can decide that your boundary is I don't want to associate with people are making those, who are saying those types of words or are making those types of choices. That's a fair boundary to have.

But, you know, I have friends that have very different lifestyles than me, and one of the best examples, I had a friend that's bisexual and I am in a monogamous relationship, and my son turned to her and asked a cute little 5-year-old question. Right now, if she were to answer it as her There would have been one answer, and she said, that is a wonderful question for your mother.

Yeah, and that's because she has respect for you guys' relationship and knew that this is the way that the relationship's going to best function, right? And she knew that she would be putting the relationship at risk if she made that, but she knows that she's putting the rela— it's not that she crossed your boundaries. It's that she feels confidence in you and your ability to maintain your boundaries, that if she were to disrespect you in that way—

Yeah, and I don't think I would have cut off the relationship with her, but I was, I was so impressed by her being aware enough that she's communicating with my child. And like when I had a friend who's a vegetarian, I don't agree with being a vegetarian. I'm all about the meat. But her kids, I only fed them vegetarian things when they came over.

Right.

You know, I don't require my friends to think, but this idea that other people are supposed to provide safe spaces for us is very unhealthy.

And I think, well, I think that it's important to provide a safe space for the people that you have agreed to provide that safe space for.

I'm saying in general.

But in general, no, no, I do not think that I do not think that I can go and know how to keep everyone safe in the world. I would be a very lonely man if I tried to do that.

Well, um, it wouldn't work.

No, it wouldn't. That's why I'd be lonely, is I would interact with no one because there would be no way to go and provide that safety.

Yeah, and then you'd be a loner incel, and then they would imprison you for that. Yeah, and it's interesting that they have these titles now that we didn't have. Like, there's no toxic femininity in our culture, but there is toxic masculinity in our culture.

Well, we've got a word for toxic femininity that we can't say on this podcast since the dawn of time. Yeah, um, yeah, but it's existed,

right? But I mean, if, if you call a woman a witch

You

know, tiptoeing around the word just for the sensitive listeners or whatever. Um, back in the day, you could get her burned for it, literally, right? But nowadays, you are not allowed to question a woman in the way that you, you can question men and their motives. Like, our culture doesn't go around the word fem— toxic femininity, or which, is not commonly used, and the people around you are going to be like, oh, okay. Where toxic masculinity is so common that I'm like, I keep asking people, what does that mean? And typically they are upset that he is being protective. And I'm like—

I think that toxic masculinity is when men use a position of power or influence to go and control and manipulate others.

Agreed. And that would be toxic of a woman to do the same thing.

Absolutely.

Why we commonly use these phrases that only apply to men, like incels— a woman that's choosing to live a life where she doesn't have a sexual partner We don't have a word for that.

I mean, there's ace or asexual. Both of those.

Yeah, but then she's celebrated for being her sexual identity.

I think that in today's world, there's, there's a lot that goes on in the media around like what's allowed and what's not allowed. But I think the reality of what I see in my day-to-day life I don't know, I travel across the country constantly, is that that's not what's happening in the day-to-day communities. Yeah. I think that the media may portray something, and I think that the media does that to go and either validate a particular group or to create fear in another group.

Right. Which is spiraling shame more. But, you know, I'm thinking about, like, you know, the 15-year-old boy who is consuming media Through social media, through, you know, shows that depict men as spineless, right? You know, the, the 6-foot-5 man being beaten up by a 5-foot woman. You know, it's like, no, no, these are not real things.

Oh, I think that the pressure on men is, it's far less in that direction and far more on the— I'm sure you saw the meme like a year or two ago where it was like, I want a man who makes 6 figures, is 6'6, works in finance, trust fund. Like, um, I think that women know that they're in a position of greater power and privilege than in previous centuries. Oh yeah. With that,

at the same time, they're whining about it. So I'm like, you can't say you're empowered and be a whiner.

I think that you can say I want more even though I've gotten what I have. At least I think about that for myself, that like there's no better time in history in my mind to be living. Yeah. I— my last week, my sous vide turned on automatically to cook my steak while the oven turned on automatically to cook my sweet potato fries. You couldn't ask for something more simple or more easy.

Yeah.

I don't think it would be fair to say that I could never complain about my life just because it's so much better than those in the 1800s.

No, I'm saying that when you look at the course of history, which is what you're saying, yeah, human beings live so well. So saying that we are suppressed as women when we live and have more choices than we've ever had, and yet there are women that exist today that are being circumcised so they can't have sexual pleasure, and you call yourself a feminist when you're like, well, it's their culture, we don't really want to get into it. Okay, um, where to believe all women when, you know, this group of women are being routinely raped, but you think you're suppressed because your male boss looked at you a little funny? You know, it's—

I guess where I would— I'd push back slightly. Okay.

Yeah,

because I'm big on that all— everyone's feelings are valid in having their feelings.

Right. However, where you express them.

How you express them, what you expect to come from those feelings, that's all different.

And

that's where I think the media can go a little bit off.

Yeah.

So the idea that someone feels overwhelmed, anxious, insignificant, excluded, exposed, like worthless, like all of those feelings can come, and I think that it is right to go and say that's injustice in the world. Is there less injustice in many ways now than there has been in the past? Absolutely. But I, I still dream and desire a world where that happens less and less to people.

Well, I think my point is that it seems like women can whine more than men are allowed to, and yet statistics show that men are struggling more with their inability to express their feelings and to have a safe place to express those feelings. And I'm saying, ladies, we need to listen a little bit more, and we need to not just expect a man to make 6 figures, have a 6-pack. We have to be willing to give in if we want to be protected and loved and given security in a relationship. So I'm not just talking about financial because

Yeah, emotional protection.

Yeah, you know, having that guy who hugs you. What are you willing to give? And recognize that men have feelings too, because I'm not seeing— as a makeup artist working with women, it seems more rare that women are surprised that just being a dad, just being a husband, just being a provider is not enough for men. And that's why I love this. It's like, we gotta explore this because I can only relate to my experience, right?

Mm-hmm.

And I see men in general— I'm married to one, I'm raised one— being told that their feelings are not valued, valid, that their experiences are not valid, that their desire for promotion or excellence. You know, my son was in a therapy program, which I'm a big fan of therapy for everybody, um, and was told that he was a toxic white male and a cisgender, and so he had no right to speak in group therapy. And the therapists were like, yeah, okay. And it's like, you're— they're, they're all there for the same reason, you know?

Yeah, yeah. I think that in general we have to provide a space for everyone's feelings to be heard. Right. Whether it's the women who are whining and complaining, quote unquote, or the men who don't know how to express their emotions. Where I think that the real struggle is for men is that even if you provide that space, how— they don't know how to exercise that muscle.

Yeah, because you're saying because they've been within these systems, typically this is all they know,

right?

And then we have a media that's saying You know?

Yeah, even if you put a man in a space where he's like, hey, you can express your feelings now, it's gonna be like— it'll be like telling him Chinese. He's just not gonna know what to do with that. Like, okay, what does it mean to express my feelings? What feelings am I even supposed to be feeling right now? Like, I think that the area where we struggle sometimes is to even know what you're feeling. Comes much more naturally, uh, for women. Uh,

and in general, we see media depictions of women expressing their feelings and being heard. You know, we're, we're, um, we're allowed to have our feels, right? And I'm not saying it's always been this way, but it's not as bad as it's been either.

And you know how to express them. That's, I think, the part that's so fascinating to me. Like, you know what it feels like to be— feel free, to feel energetic, aroused, like shocked. I think that far too often men are generally viewed as like you have 4 core emotions, maybe 3, of just like hunger, lust, and, um, competition, like competitiveness. Uh, well,

yeah, I mean, I think there's— that's a really valid point because women in general, we use more words so we can process occur to get to our feels. I came from a home where I was only allowed to have, you know, in quotation marks, happy or positive emotions. Yeah. And so I had to work very hard to be like, no, you know, and made sure that I taught my kids that they could say no to anyone, including me, right? Because you have to be able to express your negative feelings and how you do them and where you put all those feels. And I love how you're drilling in on this, this form of identity and making sure that a man realizes he's more than the things that get him accolades, right?

Yeah, absolutely. I think one of the things that's so important for men is to sit down and define what's the life that they want, what's the life that they desire. And I think that the best way to do that is in the company of other men. Mm-hmm. I think that the only place that's honestly safe for a man to go and be able to experience his emotions oftentimes is with other men. Because when you're crying at the movie in front of your wife, girlfriend, whoever it may be, That could be a moment where you're like, oh, does this guy— can this guy protect me? Is this guy like actually strong?

Well, I, I actually don't, um, I wouldn't say my husband is, um, prone to tears.

Yeah,

but, um, the fact that I get to see those tears—

yes—

is sexy.

Yeah, I think that there's a—

If you were crying all the time Absolutely. Then I would find that unattractive. But the fact that he does express feelings that only I have, you know, um, but you know, this is why like Boy Scouts is important, right? Like organizations. Because when girls— once boys hit puberty, they want to impress us girls. And they— but I've heard about boys peeing from trees onto fire at boys camp, which they would never do in front of a girl.

You

know,

boys got some fun, we'll put it that way.

I think the boys— women need our spaces. You know, there's a hormone that's released when women are with each other, and women that are around each other enough will actually menstruate with each other. And men need to go have what I call MEBS, because women have PMS, men have MEBS— male emotional breakdown syndrome, right? But they need men's spaces.

Yeah, yeah. I think that ultimately what I see for men when they're around women, the thing that's the most scary for a woman is a man who's out of control. And that's why crying seems, um, unattractive or sometimes scary for women, is that, oh, are you losing control over this? You should be in control at all times. And so it's not necessarily—

I just don't, I don't require that of my man. I don't require—

You're very healthy. Good job to you.

Okay. Um, but you're saying in general, statistics show that women find any crying—

Not any crying, but it's the idea of being out of control.

Okay.

Out of control with anger, out of control with sadness, out of control with, um, with fear, anytime that they look like you couldn't just snap back into composure in a moment, um, that's a moment that they're not able to be in that protective frame anymore because they're out of control. They can't do the protecting right then.

Okay. Okay.

That's— so if—

Hunter society's can you cry and kill the saber-toothed tiger is what I need to know.

Exactly. And so you can cry, sure. But, and I think that people find that attractive, that you're able to have this vulnerability. But I need to know that if an intruder knocks on the door in that exact moment, that you can immediately get back into the zone.

Mm-hmm.

And so because of that, you always have to have a little bit of a guard up. Like, when, when can I have my moments of lacking control? And that's where I think that men form these spaces with other men where they're able to go and say like, okay, like you're feeling angry about something that happened to you in your life, in your past. Your business partner completely sold you out for millions. Your, um, your wife cheated on you. Whatever it might be, you haven't been given a space to let out that uncontrollable emotion. Mm. And doing it by yourself, like that can lead to some of the suicide metrics that we talked about earlier. Um, and doing it around other women, they're like, whoa, you're like, you're too out of control. This is— there's that like meme going around right now of like women saying, I'd rather, um, be in a room with a brown bear than an uncontrolled man. Um, which I think is ridiculous, but—

I've actually been near a bear

So—

I fell to my knees and peed my pants. Um, I came up in Alaska on the back end of a bear eating on a bush, and I wasn't making noise like I should. And the bear was a very big, big bear. It was a very big bear. And I am fortunate that I am alive today because he could have had a good little meal. And being— but I think that kind of meme is so dangerous because a bear will kill you. It's not a question of if that is a good scenario where that man might, maybe, statistically pretty rare, right? Um, but the bear, absolutely, with one not even thinking swipe, you're dead. And so that kind of meme is exactly what I'm saying, is this, this demeaning of men where, you know, we used to as a culture, you know, Teddy Roosevelt was respected for the fact that he was a man that hunted. And now I've seen people be like, oh, I wouldn't trust a man that had a gun. I'm like, I think it's kind of sexy, but you know.

Yeah, I think that men need that space, the space to be able to be uncontrolled. And that comes from being in a space with other men. And when you do that, it raises your standard of what you expect for yourself. Yeah. And that will be more attractive in a relationship, be more attractive because you'll be more confident in yourself. I mean, there's very few things in my mind that a healthy confidence that's more attractive to anyone. Um,

absolutely. I mean, I wrote a book on confidence, and, um, but, you know, it was focused on women and girls and what, you know, studies show helps the women to feel. And it's a lot about our attractiveness, you know, like our literal— not just being attractive as far as people drawn to you, um, but literally how we feel attractive.

Exactly. It, it comes from internal, not external. Um, a practice that I have that I have done for years now that I really love is every day, um, I try and journal about what I call internal wins. There are ways that I showed up differently today than I did in the past. It's not like my past was like this horrible, terrible life. But it's okay. Like, that's something I chose to do differently. And I oftentimes think confidence comes from evidence of the past. Like, you can speak into the mirror and mantra it all day long, and I don't know, maybe it works for some people. But if I know—

No, it's just—

What?

Yeah, no. Affirmations, mantras. are a stepping stone to make it a habit.

Exactly. I think that if I can show, hey, here's all this evidence that I can do this, then you're like, yeah, of course, I have complete confidence that I can do this. You've never questioned your confidence in your ability to walk down the stairs as a young, healthy person, um, because you're just like, yeah, of course, like, that just seems ridiculous. Um, What you're wanting to do is be in a space where you can test that, challenge it, build the evidence, do it with other people that are saying, this is the standard, let's keep working towards that standard, but I'll care for you either way. And all of a sudden you're like, I am surpassing every goal that I ever set because— and I have to just keep resetting because I'm surrounding myself with people who truly align with a vision for myself that I didn't even know I had.

Okay, so what I'm making sure that I'm hearing you say, Neil, so that we, we've got all our definitions here,

yes,

is men need men's spaces so that they can do stupid. Yeah, so they can pick on the fire, they can kind of, how, you know, trying to go up to the next level of Just a sec. My, my, my thing just told me it was gonna die, and that seems like a really bad idea in the middle of the podcast. Okay, I apologize. They, just like my computer, they need a place they can recharge. See what I did there? There you go. So they need places that they can like, okay, this is where I can experiment with failure. and not be judged for it, where I can experiment with my physical boundaries, my emotional boundaries, and still have that safe space, which is what ancient hunting campfires probably were.

I, I think so. And I think along those lines, it's not these friends or these people in your life that have this quote-unquote like gentlemanly agreement, like, oh, I hate this, this is so not what people need in their life. We all know men— and women have this too, but we'll focus on men for a moment— Where it's like your only friends are the, like, ones that you sit around and talk about, like, ESPN with, or you talk about, like, politics with. There's no actual depth. There's no, like, hey, how are you honestly doing? Like, and you can't jump into that. That's not something that, like, you need shared established experiences oftentimes that are grueling and intense. before you're able to get to that space. Run the marathon, go and do the 100-mile bike ride, like do an Ironman. I lead groups canyoneering as part of my retreats. That's a big part of what I think elevates things that you're like, Yeah, yeah. How? I didn't even know I was— I knew I was getting out somehow, but I honestly was not sure how we were getting out of that canyon. That leads to this space where it's like, okay, Trust has been built because of the evidence that came from it.

Yeah, I have heard that said that men bond through experiences, and of course women bond through sharing words.

Yeah.

Yeah, and you know we all we all know that after certain acts you can ask your man for anything.

Right.

And so I've always tried to use that power with caution, but that is where you get more of the, the gooey sweetness of what your husband's feeling, you know, is when you can calm down that brain, you know, they'll, they'll share more things. And, and, you know, women, it doesn't take us too much to, to talk.

No, no, I think that the Talking for men is a— and there's different men on varying levels of the sphere. Like, I definitely can be a chatterbox.

Of course.

Yeah. But I think that in general, getting into the depth is something that requires practice. I don't think— I think if there was a very large misunderstanding around men, it's that you can't just provide the space. This is an exercise, just like how you couldn't expect someone who's never lifted before to all of a sudden be able to start bench pressing with proper form, even if it was at a low weight, they're gonna be like awkwardly holding it. It's gonna be twisting around in their hands and they're just gonna feel idiotic because they're like, I don't even— you could be strong because you played sports and still not know how to do this because you've never done it before.

Right, right. Yeah, absolutely. I love this. And so to summarize, because We've, we've gone over so many things. So tell me, make sure. So what we're talking about is that outside of titles, men have to have their identity drilled down into individually how they need to express their feels. And that includes their unquote negative feels, but their bigger feels, right?

Mm-hmm.

And they need to be able to do that with men, and they need to have More than— did you say 3, at least 3 close friends?

I think you need more than, um, 3 friends. I said 3 is what half of men have right now. Um, I know for myself, um, I try and have— and this is much higher standard, but I surrounded myself with people with high standards and rose to that standard. Um, I had a mentor who told me you need 18 people in your life. He said, men or women. He said, you need to talk to at least one of them a day. Um, he's like, sometimes it's going to be deep, sometimes it's going to be basketball, about basketball. But if you have 18 people in your circle, that's pretty significant. Um, and when he first told me that, I remember laughing him off and being like, that's ridiculous. I work. Um, when am I supposed to meet these 18 people? When am I supposed to keep up with these 18 people? Um, this is Like, you're talking to me because I'm an extrovert, like, whatever. Like, and at the time I was not as extroverted. Um, that's ridiculous. And then by spending time around another man who had a higher standard than I did, slowly started to elevate that number and went from like 9— oh, and he made clear, of the 18, your spouse doesn't count as one, kids don't count as one, and your parents don't count as one. So at that point, you've really— you're starting to deal with quite a different demographic. Yeah. But over time, as I surrounded myself around him and other mentors, I realized, well, this is what other people are doing. I want to be like them. So I'm going to go and make a conscious effort to try and make this happen. And it took a long time, but now it's an exercise I try and do every quarter where I write down who are my list of 18 right now. This time period of my life. And that's a great

call to action. Yeah, that's a great call to action for the listener. And so the female listeners, which are about 65% of my audience, to think about how you can help encourage your spouse to have the time to do that, to encourage them that this isn't something that you would support. Because, um, you know, uh, we all deserve to feel valued enough that people will make time sacrifices for us, and that is part of love.

Absolutely. And that means sacrificing— Yeah, if your partner's healthier, they're going to be able to provide better for you too.

Right, right.

And I'm sure— and you see that, I'm sure, every day with your husband though, like

Well, I,

I think he needs to have

more friendships, so I'm

gonna

keep work— I mean, I, I, I'm thinking about 6 close friends that he has, you know, and maybe, you know, maybe deepening those, right?

So yeah, I think sometimes on your list of 18, it's like I contact— my brother's one of my people right now. Him and I chat like all the time, and I might not talk to anybody else like of my week. It might be Because I'm trying to do 1 contact a day. Might be he was 3 of the 7 contacts for that week.

But you're tracking it.

But I'm tracking it.

I think is so important is just like my little star on the calendar. What you track, you can improve, right?

Exactly.

What you, what you don't track, no accountability. That's really what it all goes down to. And so, um, I think that, um, You know, dang it, I, because there's more things I want to do, but we'll just have to have you on again, Neil.

Absolutely.

Because, um, you're fascinating and you're fun and you were, I feel like we're, we have a fun time talking, but, um, think of how you, listener, can bring some of this, kind of look at it. What, what are you doing with your identity that is robbing you of your sense of self that you could be having? And working to deepen your connections. And ladies, I would say let's stop bashing on men. Let's watch what our language is saying, because if society were making jokes about us as casually as they make it about men, there would be an uproar, right? And that is contributing to the mental health and of, of men, but it's also contributing to robbing us ladies of what we want from our men— that stronger sense of self, which gives them a stronger sense of their identity. And we all want those men in our lives to, to be thriving and have passion and desire about their life and us.

Right. Absolutely. Yeah. And I think if men, if the men, you know, whether yourself or others are looking for retreats where they can meet other men who have high standards, or if they're looking for that group that kind of helps to elevate them in this space, like, that's what we do at Formation Tribe. Like, that's ultimately what I want to go and commit my evenings, weekends, life towards is saying these men deserve that space. And part of the way that you find it is through finding a community that's willing to commit to grow together.

And we'll make sure that in the show notes that there is a link to all of Neil's things. So might be a good Christmas gift, ladies, to the man in your life to go on an adventure retreat, because men do bond through experiences. And I have found if my men are sweating, they are much more open to You know, my husband loves the bike rides and the rappelling and I mean everything, like all the things. He loves all the activities like that. So I love it, Neil. And again, look him up in the show notes, everyone. And Neil, thank you for being on this episode of Share Your Hotness. Thank you.

Thank you for listening. This is Lita Green, and if you have enjoyed our podcast and would like to learn more about the principles that I teach as a speaker, I have a special opportunity for the young girls in your life. So I teach maturation programs. I wrote a book on overcoming sexual abuse, and I wrote a book on confidence. And I've had a lot of parents, I mean a lot of parents come and say, I would love for your daughter to be my daughter to be coached by you. But in order for me to coach individual daughters, so I've come up with an idea of what we're going to do. I'm going to do a group mentorship and you get to come along with your daughter. So I will be presenting principles that you and your daughter able to go home and have the conversation. So really you're the coach, but you're being given a conversation opener. So far I have eight workshops. So if you'd like to have more information about those, they are literally only going to be $40 each. And even better, if you have 2 girls, that's $80. If you have 5 girls or 4 girls or 3 girls, it's $100 per family. I am not doing this to make a ton of money. I am doing this because our girls need to have the information. frankly, that I've been teaching for years. And I wanna make that accessible to more than just the one-on-one that come to me and ask for my time as a coach. And 'cause I'm, I have to charge money per hour, you know? So this way we're getting it cheaper and accessible and they can learn with others. And I'm hoping this will be amazing for everybody involved. So let me know if you want more info.