#189 –Steven Heumann - A Conversation on Friendship

What exactly does it mean to share your hotness? We all have our own unique spark. We are burning out of control like a wildfire, attracting attention, but is it the right kind of attention? All around us are people who are campfires. They don't get as much attention, but their story, their signature spark, their heat that attracts us close to them Those stories need to be shared. On this podcast, we're sharing their stories, their stories of resilience, overcoming, how to find joy, happiness, everyday people who found their spark and made their life amazing. Hello and welcome to this episode of Share Your Hotness with your host, Leta Greene, and my guest today, Stephen Human. I'm gonna let y'all know that I did a little on Stephen because we have been trying to book him for how long, Stephen?

Oh God, probably four months.

Yeah. So a minute, a minute, and you know part of that was my fault. Yep. I think I think a lot of it was my fault, and you're busy, and you're just not available the moment I

was ready to go. So we'll I'll take accountability. And as you know that are listening, as I've kind of switched to focusing on a theme, and I said Stephen, you. Because he's one of my NSA friends. He's a pro, and you know we can we can pivot, but we can totally do old format what I promised you before. And he's like, whatever. So this is perfect because we've just been doing a about men's mental health, and we're moving into Friendship Month. So guess what? We're gonna do the segue of men's mental health to friendship because Stephen's like, well, isn't that the same thing? And I was like, ooh. do tell. But before we do that, that's our little teaser, everybody. Before we do that, behind Stephen, because you all can't see it, which is unfortunate because I'm having a really good hair day, um, that you can't see me. And as you ladies know, good hair days are to be celebrated. Um, he has— how many figurines do we have behind you?

Oh God, probably 1,000.

Yeah, but they're all beautifully displayed, and I was really pleased with myself that I knew that they were from Marvel because there's a little Captain America and you know I love America. But he's like, no, they are. And you tell them about it.

I'm pretty agnostic. So I've got DC, I've got Marvel, I've got— they're all action figures, right? So they're toys. And I've got everything. I've got GI Joe and Ninja Turtle and Star Trek.

They're toys, but you're not playing with them. They're behind a glass case.

They're behind a glass case because I like to— like, this is my safe space in my office. This is what I, you know, And I actually paint and customize them. I'm so nerdy.

That is so cute. I paint and customize my things too.

Well, it's like, it's, it's this little bit of creativity. Yeah, it feels great. I love it.

The human soul needs creativity. And even more, I think collecting is like, it's like ASMR to certain brains. Like, it makes us feel safe. I know that's for sure with me that I'm like, look at all my pretty jars. I have abundance, you know? So I think the ability to collect things that cause you joy is like totally a safe space.

Yeah, I 100% agree. And I think that not enough people, they, they either have something they want to collect and they feel like socially it's not acceptable. And so they don't.

Who cares?

But that's, that's mine too.

It's like naked children. then you should be able to collect whatever

you want,

you know?

Well, it's like, I had a friend who collected in little tiny jars. He would get soil from everywhere that he traveled. And so up on his— at the top of his office, he had a shelf and he had hundreds of these jars. And he's like, I get so much joy from it. And it's like, I'm not into that, but good on you. Like, that's awesome. So I always tell people that if they have a desire to do something like that, The way they feel that people are going to make fun of them, just do it. Who cares what other people think?

You know what? One of the cool things about being an adult is we get to be the version of the adult we want to be.

Yeah.

You know, and it's like when we were kids, I remember being like, oh, you know, I'm wearing my mom's dress to the dance because it was the only dress. And, you know, I'm, and I'm going to be teased. You know what? Who cares? I looked good.

And I think that when you own it and you just say, I'm gonna be what I am, then people— they— people crave that. They crave having someone who is fully authentic. And so I really— I think back to high school and stuff where you would have somebody who was a nerd or geek or whatever, and they owned it, and they always had the popular kids that would— that would hang out with them because they were so authentic. They were like, I don't care what you think of me. And I think that even as adults, that's what we want. We want to feel free to be who we are. And so we automatically gravitate to people who are who they are.

Right. And I did not have the confidence as a kid to do that. But now if I were to go back, I'd just be like, yeah, I'm awesome, you know? But, you know, I might even go by something like Hotness or something. I mean, like, that would be super extra, you know? I mean, I actually have this recurring dream, Stephen, where I go back to— I haven't had it in a few years, but I had it for years, like recurring. I mean, I probably had it 30 times. And I get to go back to that moment when somebody said something to me or something, and I did, like, instead of handling it well, I went and threw up in the toilet because it made me so upset. You know, and in, in this dream, I get to go back to that moment right before they say the thing. I'm prepared. So when they say it, I'm like, you know, whatever would have been my comeback, and I'm cool. Like, it's okay. Like, nothing's happened. Lita did not go and throw up in the toilet, you know? And then— but the catch is I have to live the rest of that day as my 30-year-old or 35-year-old brain in my 15-year-old body. And I have to have the 15-year-old experiences. And in this dream, as I, you know, it's going on for minutes or hours or whatever that's happening, or in my perception of it, because I know time is like different in our dreams, I am so upset because I'm worried if I'm going to make the right choices that lead me to my husband, that will lead me to my children.

There's a lot to unpack there, Lita. There's a lot to unpack right there. That is a heck of a dream. My goodness. Yeah.

And it kind of taught me having this, like, I just can't live in the regret of what was and how much I've evolved as a person, you know, because I used to be shy and broken, you know, and now I'm, I'm, I'm not shy and I'm— maybe I'm crazy, but I'm not broken. Okay, so you taught me something when we were just discussing your figurines that I thought was interesting because you were saying there's like the debate between the geek and the nerd. And my daughter is saying that geeks are smart and they have like deep interests and nerds are just smart. But you had a different take on it that I liked.

Yeah, when I was a kid, we always thought of it and I've seen people talk about it, where a geek is someone who is into nerdy things, so Dungeons& Dragons, action figures, whatever it is, but they are socially adept. So they can manage social situations and are just fine and can be charming and all of that stuff. Whereas a nerd is someone who is into all that stuff and is not socially adept. So whether you agree with that or not, it's like I refer to myself as both depending on where I am. Because I see myself as both. It's like I like nerdy things, but I do tend to be more socially adept. So

you are a speaker, and I will vouch for your social adaptiveness. And I always like marry the nerds, girls. Marry the nerds. Like, you know, and then I'll say things like the geeks are meek and they inherit the earth, you know. And, you know, like, why are girls going for the bad guy when, you know, you marry a guy that might have been a little awkward in high school? He's going to treat you like a queen. Now, my husband was a sexy man all throughout all of his adolescence years, but I might be a little biased, you know. You know, because they grow into themselves just like I grow into me. Like, I'm not ripping on my boyfriend at all, my boyfriend husband. But I have referred to him as a nerd, but I do think he's socially adept. So we will have to have a discussion as a family about what our policy on geek and nerd is so we can label these things correctly according to the geek nerd community.

There you go. You gotta, you gotta know what you're talking about. So that's good.

Because you said there's a big debate.

Depending on the circle. Yeah.

You know,

and me just saying that will probably make people mad, but that's fine.

Well, my daughter, who again, I adore, would be classified in the nerd geek arena, you know, and fortunately is going to find herself a cute little Nerd geek, you know, in that in that pool. Like if too many guys, I mean if too many girls like a guy, she's not interested.

Oh, that's interesting.

Yes. Well, her brother was the homecoming king and the body president, and she has seen so many girls be stupid for brother, you know, just and then be mean to her because they thought she was competition. She's like, I'm his. His sister. So she's just not interested in the cool guy. She's just like, that's complicated. I don't want that.

See, that's— it's funny when you're talking about like high school and your dreams and stuff and going back to high school. Like, I think about it and how awkward I was growing up, and then I look at my, my son who's 15, my middle son, and he is He's 15 and he's gangly like me, but he's very handsome. And he also has that attitude of like, I don't need anyone. And so people are drawn.

So

attractive. Oh my gosh.

And the ladies like him. So

attractive. And then I look at my 13-year-old daughter who looks at all that like, what? He's just my brother. Why are you being so dumb? So very similar to your—

Yeah.

Your son and daughter dynamic.

And Nathaniel is older than she is. And, um, I mean, Nathaniel, our son, had like even did like some modeling and there are some headshots that make me very uncomfortable, not Overly exposed, but because I'm like, crap, that people could look at this and think that's my— keep your hands and your eyes to yourself, you know. Um, I have a friend in the makeup world. Um, you know, I'm a makeup artist and stuff and did a lot of national training with makeup and traveled all over and stuff. But often I was paired with this lady who His name is Renee, and she is the mother of a why can't I remember his name? But he is Jacob in Twilight. Oh,

okay.

Now I have never seen Twilight because I am not interested in what the vampires' love life are because I would say don't date someone who you know to be a vampire who will suck. But anyway, he is he's a very attractive young man, and anytime somebody would talk about. how attractive this boy was, I'd be like, he, he is, he is too young for you. You know, like, I would feel, I would feel about him like I might feel about my own son or my son's friend, that it's like seeing 40-year-old women swoon was gross. You know, so I didn't want people objectifying my son like they did Jacob, you know. But Renee was okay with it. She would picked— put his pictures up of him more exposed, and I was like, ew, I don't— ah.

That would be uncomfortable with your own kid. Yeah, please.

Yeah, she didn't mind. All her kids are in the business, so, you know, it, it's, it's, it's not in my business. Okay, so when I asked you that question about, you know, um, mental health and friendship And you just immediately— I could see those cogs being like, aren't they the same thing? I want to know what your thought was, and let's, let's get into it.

All right, let's get into it. Well, so when you're talking about mental health and men, I mean, that's a— that right there is a lot to unpack because we think of men as being less emotional and more closed off. And in truth, I don't think that's the case. I think we pretend that we are. Like, I look at my dad, who is a very quintessential baby boomer generation, and he was just as emotional as everybody else. He just showed it differently because he had been taught that you can't show it in these other ways. You have to show it in this way. So you have to explode. You have to be aggressive. And it wasn't until later in his life when he was able to kind of push past that and realize, okay, I can just be emotional. I can just open up and talk. So, when you have that sort of dynamic of what it is to be a man and the mental health of the man, what happens is that we end up getting put into that box. And so, then you think, well, I can't share. I can't open up. And when you can't share and you can't open up, well, then you don't have friendships, real friendships. Right.

Things come out more as aggression, like you were saying, because we feel what we feel. And I always tell my kids, like, you're allowed to feel whatever. But you have to decide what you're going to do with those feelings.

Yeah. And when you're taught, like so many generations have been, that no, you don't talk about emotions, you don't— that's not something you bring up ever, you put them down deep and they're not for polite company. When you do that and you think that that's how it's supposed to be and that's what your role is and you take that on, then that becomes very isolating. Which is unfortunate because when you're isolated from people, it gets worse. All of those, all of them, they don't have friends.

And then they're repeating the cycle that got them to that place of not having friendship.

Yeah, exactly. And then as a man, you also carry the, you know, the sort of provider mindset of where you're like, okay, well, it's my job to provide for the family and I have to do these certain things and it's all on me. When we know that it's not, you know, marriage and family, it's all a partnership. It's partnership between husband and wife. It's a partnership between kids. It's all about—

To give a little bit of, I don't know if this is devil's advocate or benefit of the doubt on this. I mean, men are engineered and I think it's a good thing to be protective.

Yes.

And so, you know, if, you know, I was in a situation one time where a group of men I'm coming out of Winchell's, pulled a knife out and were threatening.

Oh my goodness.

And I am studied in karate.

Oh, I just pictured this situation, Lita, and it's awesome. Like I can see. Okay.

Okay. Yeah, it is. You have like maybe like a little Wonder Woman figurine that you could act this out with behind you?

Yeah.

Okay. So anyway, So the guy that's in front of me, we're kind of coming out at the same time. You know how those doors are pretty wide, right? And these— there's like 8 guys there, and these were all 20, 19, somewhere in there. One of them has a knife and they're all being threatening. Now I studied karate, and so I immediately went into defensive karate mode, and I'd already taken a knife out of a guy's that had put it to my throat like 2 years earlier.

Oh, wow.

So, um, I, I come from a different world than what I now occupy, so I was not unaccustomed to seeing violence directed at me, you know. And so anyway, I, you know, went into karate mode and they kind of went after the guy and he's like, ah, and I Hit one of the men, you know, very firmly with you know a karate, you know, and and then I realized that the guy that was coming out in front was the target, not me or us. And so then I kind of defended him to go get in his car and drive away and call the police as I'm sitting there like you know. And anyway, the police came. There's this whole thing. The one guy's like, she hit me. And the police were like, okay, what did you do? Right? And then later, this guy whose first name was Scott sent me flowers, became obsessed with me because I protected him. And that was distinctly unattractive. And my brother was right behind me. And the police said to my brother, like, why didn't you do anything? And he goes, oh, she had it. You know, like she was fine, you know, and he was standing behind me like, ah, you know, but he was coming out the door after, you know. So I was the one that perpetrated violence, but no charges were pressed because I was a girl. But I was not going to fall in love with Scott because I didn't protect him. So I do think there is this thing where, yeah, I mean, Scott could have been hot as all get out. But if I had to protect him because in a crisis he was like, ah, I'm not interested.

No, and I think that that's— yeah. And I— so I think that the— we, we have the— as men, we have roles and we have who we naturally are, right? And we naturally are more protectors. We naturally are the one who's going to go out and we're going to do that.

I— and I think we should. And so, yeah, I think women are putting that pressure on men History puts that pressure on men. Their testosterone puts that pressure on men, but it doesn't mean they don't have feelings.

No, and that's what I— where I think that people get kind of lost in all of this, where they think, okay, well, so I have to be this certain stoic thing and I cannot be open about what I'm actually feeling. And that then isolates you and takes you away from the people around you, whereas if you have If you think about it from, from those, those places, and a man is having whether mental health problems or, or whatever, the thing about friendship going along with mental health for men is that in the old days, if you were a knight, most people are right-handed, right? So you would have your sword in your right hand, you would have your shield in your left hand. And if you were a knight and you were greeting someone that you trusted, You would not use your right hand to shake their hand. You would use your left hand because you were leaving yourself exposed. You were showing that you were vulnerable with that person.

Interesting.

And that you trusted them enough.

Now we shake with our right hand.

Yes.

So we are attacking.

Yes. But for a knight, and that's natural because most people again are right-handed, so you're gonna, you're gonna reach with your right hand. But they would, in knight circles, would shake with their left, showing that I trust you, I am willing to be vulnerable with you, and so I am opening myself up to attack with you because I trust you. And when you think about that and about its modern equivalent, obviously we're not walking around in physical armor most of the time, you know, we're walking around with a lot of emotional armor.

Right.

But when 2 men can be vulnerable with each other and use the, the modern equivalent of that shaking with the left hand where they can be vulnerable and say, hey, I'm having a hard time. I don't know what to do in this situation with my kids or with my wife or with at work or whatever. Then suddenly that opens up deeper relationships and deeper friendships. And we rarely have that even in church circles. So for those of your listeners who are religious, very rarely even in church circles do we actually have it any relationships like that where we're actually vulnerable, which is sad.

Men's spaces have been taken away from men. And I think in church circles, you know, speaking from my own faith tradition, it's very much about to the men, what are you doing for the women? What are you doing for your families? How are you protecting and sustaining and providing? And it's not like where in the women's classes, they're like, ladies, Okay, so I was an interpreter for the deaf for many years, and I would interpret for—

My wife was as well.

No way! So we'll have fun. We'll have to go to dinner, and your wife and I can talk, and you men can bond. Yeah, you know. And, um, so, you know, when you, you would interpret from the leaders of our faith, you know, over the 18 million members, I'd be interpreting for these meetings, um, to those that were gathered in the congregation that day. The message to the men were like, you can do better. And the message to the women was like, dear sweet sisters, we love you. You know, and, you know, I'm like, again, I'm interpreting it. So I'm like having to pay attention to every word. And it was always like putting women up on this pedestal. But, you know, as I started, like, later, you know, when I have my own son, I'm like, I don't want him just to hear messages of doing better. You know, and Boy Scouts, my son and my husband were both able to become Eagle Scouts. But now, the boys aren't allowed to have Boy Scouts. A lot of traditional men's spaces where they could bond over activity have been taken from men. And they're shamed for being men. And I don't like it.

No, and those spaces need to exist. And oftentimes, those spaces were the places where men could feel vulnerable, where they could have real conversations with other men about their fears or about, you know, I mean, I, I, part of my business is, is ghostwriting for leaders. And I wrote the book for a parenting book several years ago, and it was focused for men and for fathers. And one of the things that they focused on was the need to have, to have open spaces where you could just have a conversation about not knowing what to do. About saying, I don't know what to do in this circumstance. Yeah, which is vulnerable because we often are seen as, well, we have all the answers, or we assume all of the men around us have all the answers. They know how to fix a tire and they know, you know, all that stuff. And it's like, most of the time we don't. We have our sphere where we're good, but we don't know stuff from outside of that, and we're afraid to ask. And so when you have these spaces, like you mentioned, where men can be together and just have a good time and open up and just say, hey, have any of you guys ever dealt with this? Because I don't know what to do. And it doesn't matter what level it's at. It could be something simple as, I've never painted an action figure before, you know, or it could be as deep as, my marriage is falling apart and I don't want to— I don't know what to do. I want to salvage it and I'm lost. Mm-hmm. when you have that level of vulnerability where you can feel safe to open up, then suddenly your mental health improves and you're able to feel better about yourself. You're able to feel better about your relationship with people. And that all comes from just having a real friendship with multiple people, not just with one, but with people that you can go to and sit and feel like, I can put my shield down. I don't need to be on guard. And I can put these emotional— this emotional armor, I could take it off and just be who I am and feel okay that I don't know the answers or that I am a geek and I don't want, you know, that sort of stuff. So yeah, when you said mental health and friendship, I was like, for me as a man, those 2 things go hand in hand.

Well, I'm so glad that I was so brilliant to have this lineup. But Neil, my guest that I had last week when this comes out in the lineup, He made the point that men— and I'm curious of your thoughts about this because it was kind of the, the challenge of the, the conversation— was that men need to have 8 to 12 friendships, and that he actually goes through and calls. So I guess he's scheduling it or something, goes through and makes sure he's connecting with a friend at least once a day. So in his drive, that kind of thing. And he is single, you know, doesn't have— and so, you know, I'm kind of sitting there thinking as a wife with how many friends my husband has, but, you know, one of his most time-consuming— I think he likes it— is me. And is a wife a good enough— I mean, I'm— I know a wife is a very important thing for men. I'm, you know, I'm a big fan of Being a wife, but when we're talking about this mental health and friendship, you know, am I enough to count for like three of those friendships? Or do a men because you're married different than Neil, right? And I hope Neil finds his his cute sweet wife one day. But how much of those friendships is still needed when there's a marriage?

They're still needed because so like my wife.

I'm not saying it wasn't, but I'm just yeah yeah yeah that number would you change that number? I guess is what I'm asking.

I do. So, so my wife is my best friend. We have a wonderful, wonderful marriage. Like when you talked about your boyfriend husband, I think of my girlfriend wife. Like we have a very, very strong relationship and I'm very proud of that. And she is my best friend and I would rather spend time with her in any circumstance than anyone else.

And I feel the same way about my husband.

Yeah.

And I'm pretty sure he likes me a lot.

You know,

you know, he did ask me to marry

him,

you know, but

But at the same time, your spouse can't carry all of that weight. You have to have other people that you can go to, and there will be different levels. So like when he talks about like his 12 friends, I think of different—

He doesn't have 12 friends. He has friends, but I'm like, I don't know, like Neil's put a lot of thought into this. I mean, he has a lot of people he knows, but I'm talking about people he's gonna go on a hike with or have a deep conversation with, you know. Yeah, not 12 of them.

No, I think of friendship in levels where you have the, the level where if it was 2 in the morning and I needed to call someone, who am I going to call that I know is going to come right then? Um, you have that level of friends. So then you have the next level of friends where it's like, I'm gonna go on a hike with them or we're gonna go out to lunch, but I'm not going to call them at 2 in the morning if there's a problem. Um, and so I think you need different— you need a different number of those individuals. Like, I probably— of the people that I could call at 2 in the morning, I maybe have 6 that I know that they would pick up and that they would come. And then—

I think it's an interesting question because, tell me if I'm wrong, but it seems like men— it's good for men to kind of have these like This is the number, this is the goal, maybe more than women.

Yeah, because we're obviously with men, like, it's easier for our little brains to have like those things.

I will not get into little brains of men. Now, I do often say men are pretty simple, barring dysfunction or addiction. You give them food and the other thing consistently, they will die for you.

Yeah. And so we are simple, and that's what I mean by small brain. We are very simple,

and that's why we're not getting into doing that.

No, no,

on this Share Your Hotness podcast.

Yeah, no, we are very simple where it's like, if I've got no— like, my— like, a few months ago, my wife was like, hey, you, is everything okay? You're in your office a lot. And I'm like, well, I got the door open, like, if I'm not at work. And she's like, well, but what are you doing in there? And literally, I am sitting in this chair looking off at the action figures with no thought in my brain. Like, I'm literally just sitting here, like, just— and for me, I need that time. I needed that. It's just because I'm simple.

But because you're— I like to think of it as more that their brains are linear.

Yes.

And our brains are like all over. And, you know, I joke in one of my TEDx talks that that's why I'm so fascinating. Right? You know, because I don't even know sometimes. Like, if my husband would come and ask me that question, if I were at a place of like, he's like, what can I do for you? Which he is wonderful and asks those kinds of questions often. And I have to really stop and like, it almost puts me in a deeper spiral trying to answer the question because I don't know.

Yeah, and he just wants to solve the problem because as a linear thinker.

If I go to him and say, what can I do for you? He might say, Oh, I am thirsty. And I'm like, oh, love, I was asking, you seem a little stressed, you know? Oh, yes, yes, I am stressed. I will go get you a glass of water. And can you think of anything that I can, you know, and we know what the things will, what he needs, you know?

Well, I like that you refer to as the linear thinking because that's very, very true. As we move from one thing to the next very easily. And that's why we're problem solvers. Like, you tell us there's something wrong, oh, okay, well, I'm going to solve the problem because that's the next step. It's not the nuance of, well, we're actually, we're actually looking at things on a deeper level. And men are— we are fairly straightforward. Like, you talk about food and the other thing, and it's like, yeah, you're— You'd be pretty— a guy will be pretty happy. He's not going to sit there and contemplate the, you know, the universe and all these questions. He's going to be like, okay, well, I'm, I'm not hungry and I feel like I'm taken care of, so I can just sit on this rock now. And that's how we go. But we do feel all those same emotions, and we do have the fears, and we do have the doubts. And—

Mm-hmm.

When you have that level of friends where you can have those conversations, where you can just call them up and say, hey, I'm having a hard time, or I'm having a, you know, an existential crisis— we might not put it that way, But that's what we're having. When you have those people that you can call on, suddenly things open up and you're able to have real conversations. And then your relationship with your wife improves just naturally. Your relationship with your kids improves because you're not— they're either not having to hold all of that space for you. They're able to, to, you know, be in their sphere with you. And you're able to have this other support of people that are helping to prop you up. And your wife doesn't have to do all that heavy lifting, and you're then able to do more heavy lifting for her because you're not lifting all of your own garbage that you're trying to deal with at any given moment.

Because I think for, for me and in my friendships, I would rather have less and quality than a butt ton. Now I do— I am very fortunate that I have a butt ton of friends, people that I feel friendship towards, and people that seem to like me, right? And that when we've had crises in our family, we are literally overcome with support. But that's kind of a side effect of being an extreme extrovert and the nature of my work as a speaker and—

Yeah.

You know, frequent social media user and things like that. You know, doing this podcast, you know, people get to know me But, you know, for me, where I'm sharing a lot, where I get to live in a vulnerable space in a sense, even though there are things that I— you know, there's, there's levels of what I'll share. I've had people come to me and be like, this is my best friend. And I would have put them in a, a lesser tier of friendship, even though I feel that way towards them. We've never done anything together. And I think this is a difference between men and women, and I'm curious on your thoughts because I realized at first I was kind of taken aback because I didn't want to be disrespectful to what they were saying or what they were feeling because I've been left out. I don't want to be that girl. See how my brain's doing all this? And I realized what it was is because of my openness and my authenticity that they were feeling the deepest connection with me that they felt with anyone. And I think women are more capable, if you look at like fandom, of identifying friendship with people that they maybe have never done anything with. But I've always heard how men bond through doing things. And so it doesn't seem as common or as likely that a man would be like, that's my best friend, this guy that I've seen in a movie that I think is really cool, and I saw him in an interview and I really liked his interview, and Where women, I you know they they love Taylor. You know they love Taylor Swift, and I'm just like I don't really know anything about her personally, right? But I see that happening, and it's not like a psycho thing. It's just like a woman. They're kind of cliquey. They're kind of these are my people, and I'm friends with all these people. This is my group, and I find more joy in having. the friends that I can cry with, and those are, those are less than the people that I would call my friend. Am I making sense?

Yeah, yeah, and that makes sense. And for— I mean, men tend to be more physical just in general, right? That's just kind of how we're wired. And so going and doing something with another man on an adventure or playing sports or whatever is a great way for, for us to bond. Like, we, we bond on that level, and we build friendships on that level. But we still have that emotional side too, where when we have those types of relationships, just like with a woman, they tend to go deeper. But that's also like guys can get into an argument and punch each other and then be totally fine afterward because they got that out. They had the physical moment of punching each other in the face.

And women will gossip about them for weeks.

Right. And the, the needling and the, and that sort of thing. And so Because we're simple, we can punch each other in the face and be totally.

And I'm gonna, I'm gonna out, I'm gonna out women for a minute here.

Okay, do it.

So, um, my sister does not listen to my podcast, first of all. So anyone who does know my sister and listens to my podcast, you just keep this to yourself. Don't be a little gossip, okay? Because I don't need more family drama. But I, we'd have a conversation, everything would go fine, and weeks later My aunt, my mother, and my cousin would be coming to me in distress because of something that I had said that didn't even sound like me, that my sister was upset about. But now instead of hearing it directly from my sister, I've heard about it from all the clan, right? So it got so bad that I got to the point where I started recording my conversations with my sister. So that I could go back and review the transcript if I'd actually said the thing that was said that I said. And then I would say to her, well, I— and I started saying, well, I'm going to go and review the recording. And she goes, what? And I was like, the recording. I recorded that conversation. Why would you do that? Because I've been apologizing for 40 years for things I never said. That doesn't even feel like something I would say. And I've been finding in the recordings that I didn't say the thing that Aunt Marsha and Mom and, you know, cousin blah blah blah are all upset about. That's an example of extreme crazy womenness. Now with men, I have never heard or anything like that of a man doing something like that.

No. And because, because you just describing that Sounded so exhausting to me that I was just like, oh my gosh, why?

And you're like on eggshells with these crazy women. Now, not all women are like that. I like to think I'm not a crazy woman, but I did just gossip about my sister on— I figured it out. We have different names and we don't look alike, but you could figure out who my sister is, even though we're not connected on social media. So, you know, because me being me is just really hard, but Those kinds of things as a makeup artist are not uncommon female experiences from junior high on. And so I live in a life of very low drama now, and I always tell women my age, if you were having constant drama, you're contributing to it or the source of it.

Oh yeah.

But you just don't hear about men doing that. And again, I think that makes women think that men don't have deep emotional lives. because they're not analyzing the, the nuance and the tiptoeing and the trying to precast and predict and know, and what should I, and what is she going to feel, and then what's Susan going to do, and then what's Heather going to do. Like, men don't do that, right?

Well, and because we don't do that, then it makes less— it makes it less likely that either a spouse or a friend or something is going to think to ask those kinds of questions of a man, to be like, hey, how are you doing emotionally? Or how, you know, I can tell, like with you, with your husband, right? What do you need? Oh, I'm kind of thirsty. No, no, I mean, you look stressed.

Yeah. And my husband has a form of Tourette's, so he gets body tics. So I am a lucky wife that I can pick up on those tics. You know, just by putting my hand on his thigh, which is only a privilege I get to do. If anyone else does that, I will punch you, and you know I'm capable of violence. Um, you know, but I can see even if his body language, you know, his facial expressions, all that, I can see the level of— I can feel the level of stress. And I've often hoped that other women could have something like that with their husbands. to kind of be like, oh, okay, we gotta key in. We gotta— they're human beings too. Their emotional lives are rich and deep too. Otherwise, why would we want them?

Well, and it's interesting because, like, let's go back to what we were talking about before. We're like, my wife is my best friend and you're your husband's best friend. Well, as if we were to think about that relationship, the husband-wife relationship, as merely friendship, Well, part of that is paying attention to the other person's emotional state and asking those questions and being like, hey, let's— why don't we go on a walk? Or let's go on a date and let's talk. Let's have some parameters. And when you put that in front of a guy where you're like, hey, for the next 25 minutes, we are just going to talk about this subject. We're going to talk about what is going on at work. Then he'll be like, Oh, okay. And he will share all of the things that you want him to share. He will literally open up. Yeah,

really, you, you, you have the ability to give them the topic.

Yes, and we will follow it. Like, there was one time years and years ago where my wife, she was listening to a podcast, and, and she was like, she'd heard about a resentment walk where you go on a walk with your spouse and you each have your turn where the other person cannot talk. And you basically just say, here are all of the frustrations I have with you. And you would think that that would be a negative experience, but it totally was not because I knew that I wasn't going to be able to defend myself. I just had to listen to her. And by the time she was done, I had a much better understanding of how she was seeing things and what she was feeling. And then the same thing happened with me when I was able to then talk. And by the end of me talking, I had pretty much solved all of my resentment problems without her even having to say a word. But it— and so it was this wonderful thing, but I had the parameters. I knew what was happening. Okay, it was time for me to talk about something that was maybe something I didn't want to talk about, but because I had the parameters, I knew that I could, and I did, and everything was wonderful afterwards. It was like, oh my gosh, I feel like this weight has lifted off of me of things that I didn't even know that I was carrying. And so when you have that as your husband's best friend or your boyfriend or whoever, or your brother or whatever, and you realize, okay, I can tell, we know that he's stressed out or he's worried about something, just create that parameter and say, here, for the next half hour, we're going to talk about worries. What are we worried about? And I'm going to start. Here's what I'm worried about. And then he will get into the mode of saying, okay, I can, I can be open here and I can talk. And He will, I promise.

I actually really love that because it's— my husband and I do weekly dates, and sometimes, um, you know, being a speaker, my schedule might get in the way of that a little bit. But typically it's Friday night, and I don't do anything unless you're paying me good money. I don't— I'm not gonna leave Friday nights. Um, if girlfriends try to schedule things on a Friday night, I mean, my friends have all learned that I'm doing Friday night. And there's this lady at church that I do a lot of outreach for. In our church, we call it ministering. And she the other day was like, oh, I know you won't do anything on Friday or Saturday, Sunday afternoon because you're gonna be with your boyfriend. And I was like, yeah, yeah, that's actually pretty correct, you know. And she's tested that boundary by calling during those times. And it's just kind of like, interesting. But you know, she knows, right? And so I think I'm liking what you're saying about giving men a parameter. But also ladies, we have to put aside that time because if we're a nurturing personality, a lot of people can pull us. And we made a family, we've made little people, then we've got to schedule that. And I have found that to be something that has really helped me in my life and the stability of my family is that I literally scheduled eyeball time.

Yeah, because my wife and I did the same. Yeah,

the busy of everything, it's really easy to go with the greatest need and neglect what's most important, you know, your, your, your children, your husband. And, and I'm— and not in that order. I think your, your marriage comes first.

I 100% agree. And I think that when you place firm boundaries on certain aspects of your life and you say, okay, here is Saturday nights, that's my wife and my date night. Saturday nights, everybody knows, just like with yours and Fridays, I'm not going to do anything because my wife and I are going to go on a date. And when you have those boundaries in place, you say, okay, what, what are the most important things in my life? And this is one thing that I like to do. Where do I want to be in 25 years when I'm, you know, going into my 70s? Where do I want my life to be? Well, I want to have a good relationship with my wife. I want to have a good relationship with my kids. Well, so if I have that positive thing as my outlook, then I know that today I need to make certain choices. So that means I need to spend time with need to spend time with my wife. I need to spend time with my kids, and I need to, to be able to, to say, okay, this is what we're doing, and what do you want to do? You know, so we have special nights with our kids where every Tuesday night, we— one of the kids has their, their special night, and they get to choose where they go out with mom or dad and what they go and do. Um,

and how many humans have you made, Steve Human?

6.

Well done. I was gonna say, because I've seen that strategy employed by bigger families to make sure they're getting that date time with dad or date time with mom or both or whatever. Now, I only have 2 living children, so it's much easier to manage. And every family thing is families of 4. Like, like, it's super easy. And, you know, we've done, you know, a lot of trips that we can do, you know, together because we have the luxury of the finances and the smaller family. It makes it easier. But I love that you're prioritizing that eyeball time and you call it— what do you guys call it?

Special night.

Special night.

It's their special night.

Yeah.

And sometimes they sit like my, my 8-year-old tonight is his special night and he wants to play video games with dad. So we're gonna play video games. And so it's like, all right, cool.

Is he a geek nerd?

Um, he is. He's— he reminds me very much of myself. Like, I think that my 8-year-old self and him would get along very well. But he also is very good at playing by himself and just being imaginative. So he goes outside and you'll hear him, you know, doing something. And it's like, that was me.

Kind of made me want to cry. He said my 8-year-old self would get along with him. What, what a gift being a parent is to look at somebody and go, we, we would be friends. You know, and you get to nurture that person into being their best human. Sorry, I just have to do

it. You can't have a last name like mine. The cool thing was that I was also the youngest of 6.

Oh, very cool.

Just like him. And so he's in a similar position with older kids, and, and we just end up seeing the world very much the same way. And it's It is wonderful to be able to see that. And then also, you know, when you have someone that's similar to you, sometimes you can get more annoyed with them than other people. And so it helps me to, when I start getting annoyed with my 8-year-old, to stop and say, okay, why am I getting annoyed with him? Oh, it's because he's exactly the same as me. And it— and so then I, I can give him a little bit more grace. Yeah.

And the flip side of that, something I always say to parents is, you You know, you don't order in, right? Like, you— this is not a restaurant where you're like, I want this, this, this, and this. I was given— and I adore my children— but literally the, the scenario of what I would never have prepared for in personality, you know. Um, my daughter is an introvert. Um, and if I were to say to the children when they were little, we're gonna go to the park, my daughter would burst into tears. And my son would be thrilled because he is an extrovert, but my daughter needs to schedule everything. And so figuring that out, that even a 3-year-old was concerned about the schedule, that was a real challenge for me who thinks life is— Like, if you told me right now, with what is on your person, you get to go to Timbuktu. I would be for it. I would go. Done. Like, let's go. My daughter would be like, no, I don't care if it's all expenses paid. Like, I don't know. And my son, you know, as I told you, was very cool. And my husband and I literally one day when before we were— we had children, we were like, what if we had a cool kid? What would you do with a cool kid? You know, like, how do you parent a cool kid? Like, what's that skill set? You know, I mean, and that's just like, you just don't order them. So I just love that, you know, my husband and my daughter are very similar. But I just— that concept of looking at your child and being like, we would have hung out if we were in the same class, you know, we would have been friends. I'm just like, oh, because now both of my children I would consider my friends, but I'm still their mom.

Yeah.

Um, and they're adults, so they probably are going to be like, Mom, no, we're adults. Well,

because they're the cool kid and you're not.

Well, my cool kid, definitely my daughter, we actually tell her that she can't go around saying we're her best friends because that's going to scare off a boy that thinks she's enmeshed with her parents, and she's not. So don't be saying stuff like that because it's going to make her look like a crazy girl that can't leave her parents. Um, okay, so let me go over to make sure we don't need to go deeper into any of these things because you shared some great wisdom. We were talking about the danger of isolation for men and how they need to be able to have, um, you know, provide and protect and all these stigmas and expectations that men have on them, and that they need— men need spaces and activities so they can be vulnerable. I have these fears, I have these hopes. And then you talked about making parameters and having boundaries around, like, parameters of what those kind of conversations look like and having those conversations of, we're going to talk about this. So that's a great suggestion, ladies, to be like, honey, let's talk about this for 25 minutes. How was work? How's your, you know, your relationship with your mom? Like, whatever. And then boundaries, and then the special date night with your kid, or special, special night. So anything you want to dive in more on, or any other thoughts? Because you being a professional, we could just keep going and going. I, of course, have nothing to ever say on any topic, but I wanted to do this thing on mental health. Because, you know, mental health is something that for men are the most likely to attempt and succeed. And they are mocked in our media. And as a woman who's made a man and married a man, I know, crazy, I married a man. And that was not— marrying a man was not why we had a hard time getting kids. You know, I just like to clarify that with people. But I digress. The whole point being that, you know, I do feel like half of our population is under a serious threat, and we need to have conversations with the men in our lives and sending the men in our lives value, because men deserve and need our respect. And if we're always making fun of men, you can't be really surprised and call him a pooper snot. or whatever other words you might use, if he goes and looks for companionship somewhere else where they're nice to him. And I don't agree with cheating or affairs or anything like that, but it happens. And a lot of times the women are saying to me, I realize in hindsight I could have been nicer. And I'm like, oh, oh really? Is being nice something human beings like?

No. And that's, it's, that's an interesting thing to bring up because, again, men, as we are more naturally stoic, we think that sometimes the stuff that we say or do does not impact them. And it does. It impacts us just like it does anybody else. And I would add one more thing about the mental health side for men is the importance of creativity and having a creative outlet. And I'm not talking about you know, becoming a painter or something like that. There is creativity in everything that we do. And like, here's an example. My oldest son is 22, and he has gotten into— ever since he was a teenager, he's been very much into metalworking, and he's gotten very good at making knives. And so I went with him to this knife show over the weekend, and the artistry involved in these knives was mind-blowing. And for me, being an artist and a writer, It was beautiful to see, but it also reinforced the fact that we can find creativity in anything that we do as men. Yeah. And if we realize that and say, oh, I like to be in the garage, well, start working with wood, you know, start doing something. My dad was a wonderful carpenter, and that was his safe space to be in the garage building something out of wood, and he was so incredibly creative. when we have that creative outlet, then we are able to be alone with ourselves and alone with our thoughts outside of friendship, outside of spouse, and we're able to work through things. I had a good friend who I invited to come over and paint D&D— so Dungeons and Dragons miniatures.

Thank you, because I knew what D&D was, but you know, because I'm adjacent.

Yeah, so Dungeons and Dragons, it's awesome. If for any of the men listening Um, join a Dungeons& Dragons group if you want to have a really good time and make some friends, and you will have way more fun than you expect. But I had him come over—

I actually was in a Dungeons& Dragons group when I was young. I was 12. They were all 18 or older. I don't know what my mother was thinking, but they were all, they were all perfect gentlemen. But I would never let my daughter at 12 join that. Anyways, I cut you off, Stephen.

No, so, so I had him come over just to paint minis. I was like, I paint minis on Thursday nights. Do you want to come over? He's like, sure. He was not a nerdy or a geek at all. Um, and he found so much satisfaction. And he said, because I was able to shut my brain off and I could look at that and I could paint it and do creative things. And it didn't matter. There was no stakes. It was just me being able to be creative. And it was so helpful to him and his personal mental health. And so that is one other thing that we need to realize is that for all of us, whether men or women, finding some sort of creative outlet where you can be by yourself and alone with your thoughts and just create something, that is— it's healing. It is such a wonderful thing, and it can be done anywhere. It doesn't have to be done in traditional places.

I do craft day with the ladies. But I do cook, and that's a creative outlet. Not because I love it.

Yes.

I'm making for my family. But I do notice that it's kind of a decompression time between my work day and my family day. And it's amazing, the family, they run for the hills. You

know,

it's like it was totally my time. Um, my husband is really into working out— cycling, skiing, running. Is that considered a creative outlet?

I think it is because—

But you want to make sure he's okay.

Yeah, when you're in that space and you're thinking about your body, or you're thinking about, okay, well, what am I— what exercise am I going to do? What do I want to do today? It is stimulating to the mind, it's stimulating to the body, and it puts you in that place of being like— my brother loves to run, and that becomes his zen space, and he plots out his routes and stuff. Create— there's so much more to creativity than just what we think of with the, you know, the written word or with a pen or whatever. It's like with food and you experimenting with something, say, well, you know, I'm going to try this or whatever. Like Julia Child is one of the most creative chefs that exist.

You just put butter in everything, so I can't use this for recipes. But I do agree that creativity is— I think it's divine. I think our souls are creative. And I think so often, you know, in our education system and things like that, we're trying to get people to be more the same, right? Mm-hmm. And going deep into something that's uniquely you and the other combinations. When I, when I'm talking to elementary school kids, I have a speech that I talk, talk about awesome sauce and all the sauce that has to go into making their unique awesome sauce, you know? And it came from the fact that I literally call kids awesome sauce. And I was like, I really should need to do something with this since I call the neighbor kids awesome sauce, but that our, our soul needs to explore the, the extent of what we are.

Yeah, and I think that's a great way of doing it, is finding that creative outlet no matter what it is and realizing that it's everywhere. You can be creative as a home builder. You know, you are creating something from nothing. Sometimes it's just thinking in creating something in your mind. But we are creators when it comes down to it, and the more that we tap into that, the healthier we are, both mentally and physically.

I love it. Let's be creative and loving each other. And I did not mean that in a weird way, people. Don't take it weird. And, um, you know, being aware of the, the mental health of the people that we love. I'm speaking to the we ladies right now. And, um, creating great lasting friendships with our spouse and with those in our lives.

I love it.

Well, I love this conversation, Stephen. And again, in the show notes, we'll have information about Stephen where you can find him for speaking engagements, for writing, ghostwriting. And he's a genuinely awesome human. And I do like to use the word human, those of you listeners, but I want to use it even more when I'm talking to Steven Heumann. And his last name is spelled— how do you spell it again?

H-E-U-M-A-N-N.

So an extra E and an extra N.

Yeah.

Okay. Well, thank you so much, Steven, for being on this episode of Share Your Hotness.

Thank you for listening. This is Lita Green, and if you have enjoyed our podcast and would like to learn more about the principles that I teach as a speaker, I have a special opportunity for the young girls in your life. So I teach maturation programs. I wrote a book on overcoming sexual abuse, and I wrote a book on confidence, and I've had a lot of parents. I mean, a lot of parents come and say, I would love for your daughter to be— my daughter to be coached by you. But in order for me to coach individual daughters— so I've come up with an idea of what we're going to do. I'm going to do a group mentorship and you get to come along with your daughter. So I will be presenting principles that you and your daughter are able to go home and have the conversation. So really, you're the coach, but you're being given a conversation opener. So far I have 8 workshop topics. So if you'd like to have more information about those, they are literally only going to be $40 each. And even better, if you have 2 girls, that's $80. If you have 5 girls or 4 girls or 3 girls, it's $100 per family. I am not doing this to make a ton of money. I am doing this because our girls need to have the information. Frankly, that I've been teaching for years, and I want to make that accessible to more than just the one-on-one that come to me and ask for my time as a coach. And because I'm— I have to charge money per hour, you know. So this way we're getting it cheaper and accessible, and they can learn with others. And I'm hoping this will be amazing for everybody involved. So let me know if you want more info.